Matt Moore

Perhap you should read my post again. I took pains to not imply you were prejudiced. I am pleased that you (unlike some others) undertand a lack of knowledge is not stupidity. However, back to the statements you made...

then when you look at the numbers your statement implies that black people are on the lower end of "class and income"

I'll live in the real world, you live in your pretend little bubble.

Hello from Earth! It is easy to find stats that show on average blacks do make less income than whites in the USA. That is not hard to prove as a fact. Even looking at the median that is true. So yes, the first part of what I said you understand. Class is a term that does not really cover all of the other factors but it is used because it is simple. But social standing, culture grouping and several other factor fall in to "class" and a person's outlook on the world and law. It is also a fact that people of low income background have more police interaction and are jailed more often than people of higher income. That line is there for any race or color group.

You throw around your 45% as if it is a "be all, end all" number, but it is just one stat among many. It is when you guess "the why" of what stats mean is where you fail. That is just 1 number in a large data set. I gave you a study that shows how blacks are subject to many more random stops by police than whites. It also had numbers on blacks getting tickets or arrested with the same speed as whites to be disproportionate. That could have helped you with....

Keep telling yourself that, eventually you might even believe it.  It's a proven fact the odds of a black person being charged with a serious crime are higher then a white man

It is also a fact that a black man is much more likely to have been falsely convicted of a serious crime than a white man. Have you not seen the parade of black men who have had DNA prove thay did not do the crime they were serving time for? To cut off anyone heading to that pass: No, I am not saying a large % of black men in jail are there with false conviction. But a black man is more likely to be charged than a white man, period, in the same situation.

My work background involves SPC and I know that the cause of any variation is not always clear with 1 datum. Interpretation comes with a rounded set with data covering several points of objective. With people there are many more variables than with a work process. Lower income people go to jail more. Race is a variable that become an exponent as opposed to a level factor. I know of other stats that tell the same story as your 45% but I also know many others that outline the point I made. But as with "The Bell Curve" even that can be twisted with faulty start points as shown with "The Bell Curve Debate."

Statistics are the "what", not the "why" in looking at a situation. One data point is just that, set in a vacuum and isolated for the rest of the context. The difference in how one color is treated differently is rarely small even when it seems slight.

Half time is well over and I'm missing the game.

Maybe class and income define crime in the USA much more then race, but here's a question for you.  If you and many others including experts on this planet are right ( and I'm not saying you're not) then when you look at the numbers your statement implies that black people are on the lower end of "class and income" as you put it.

Just a correction from my last little post.. I re-read it and realized I forgot a couple words  

 If you were to study, you would learn that class and income define crime in the USA much more than race

Maybe class and income define crime in the USA much more then race, but here's a question for you.  If you and many others including experts on this planet are right ( and I'm not saying you're not) then when you look at the numbers your statement implies that black people of "class and income" as you put it.  Why is that?  The numbers are mind boggling, when the numbers tell us that 45 percent of drug dealers in jail are black and the black population only represents about 13 or 15 percent of the overall population, that's one hell of a difference in "class and income".   That doesn't make sense to me..... I could see a small difference for the simple reason our society still doesn't always treat minorities fair or as equals, but those numbers are staggering....  I don't have the answer.

With your limited knowledge, you may well think racial profiling is "good police work"

Seriously?  Is that what you got from everything I said?  Wow.  That's not what I said at all, and if you read ALL my posts you'll probably understand that I am not prejudice nor do I believe in racial profiling, not one bit. 

I simply stated what I still believe to be a fact, and I'll repeat it just in cased you missed it.  People are constantly telling us these crimes are not black or white or race issues when in reality the stats say otherwise.  

I never once pretended to know why that's the case, not at all.  If you would like to believe I'm prejudice and that I believe in harassing and abusing black people or other minorities then go for it, whatever makes you happy.


 

Wow, redwings, you KNOW a black man! And a self hating one at that! Small wonder.

Like your "friend", I have a degree (only 1), as well as do both my sons. Often, after having talked over the phone, people are surprised to meet us, as we are " not who they pictured." I dislike that response but understand it. And the thing that baffles us is why someone who knows 3 or 4 black people feel they know "black people". Clearly, your "friend" knows very few "black people" himself. While my sons and I also hate the percentage of young black men who think it's OK to have a prison record, we do have a solid picture of why some black men buy into that lack of reasoning. We have seen it first hand in some young men we know.

You need to stick to the fact that "you" don't know why race and color have little to do with most statistics on the legal system. If you were to study, you would learn that class and income define crime in the USA much more than race. Complex question but it boils down to this. An income line also helps defines black male attitudes on crime. Pair that with the effect of an "underclass" culture and the numbers tilt upward. Just because you are uneducated on the reasons does not mean they are not there to find.
With your limited knowledge, you may well think racial profiling is "good police work" and that "driving while black" is some urban myth (if you have heard of it). You and your friend should read the David Harris study in the Minnesota Law Review from 1999 as a starter. It is easy to see if a person have the clear obsevation point. And while you could even find a Thomas Sowell (like your friend) or Clarence Thomas, the vast amount of study shows you to be wrong. But your colour (maybe) and location (somewhat) could have a lot to do with the why of how you and your "friend" remain ignorant. Maybe.

I have a few "friends" in Canada that I have made while traveling (and they are caucasion) and oddly, they have never expressed your point of view in our calls or emails. So maybe colour and location don't always define a person's point of view. But like baseball, if you are not in the batters box, the pitch never looks as close to your head.

And sorry to pop another thought bubble, but in Texas (where Miller is from) if you hear about a "pistol whippin" (yes, no g), it is likely to be done by a white person. But safe for one to say, car jacking is still overwhelmingly black.

Hey, Im not saying there can't be a cultural pre-disposition, I'm just saying it's not biological.  When we open that can of worms then we throw everything out the window.  Culture is a human construct, borne out of geography, available food, etc.  Poverty creates culture, as does wealth.  I appreciate your position, it is well argued and comes from a good place, I apologize for my quick judgement.  The why in your question should only look as deep as the skin, but no deeper.  And the answer should be one that understands those statistics as being representative of a societal problem, not a genetic one.

What point were you trying to make exactly?  I'm not disputing the numbers, I'm giving a reason for them that doesn't infer that blacks are more criminal than whites or others.  

I guess instead of arguing about something like this keeping it simple might make more sense.  The point I'm trying to make is when people make statements like "it's not a black and white thing" or "it's not a race issue" in my opinion they are wrong.  I'll admit this much, I should have respected your reasoning a little more then I did because who knows, maybe you're right?  But once again my point is when statistics prove that black people get into trouble at an alarming rate in comparison to white people in my opinion saying it's not a black or race issue isn't accurate.  The numbers are what they are for a reason.  What exactly is that reason?  You and I could debate that forever but there will never be an end to it because there aside from the numbers there isn't anything else very scientific about this,,,

What's even more mind boggling is even an educated black person can't give me any answers.  I have a good friend that lives in Canada just like I do but about 4 hours away.  He grew up in the same city I currently live in but moved away quite a while back. The guy is a professional, has his business degree and a masters degree as well.  A great guy, family oriented and as well spoken and articulate as any man I've ever met in my life.  You know what?  At times he's bitter towards his own race because he can't figure out why such a large percentage of black men destroy not only their lives but many others along the way.

And like I said, he's a black man that can't figure it out.  And he's intelligent beyond belief.....  if he doesn't know exactly why then I sure as hell probably won't figure it out anytime soon.

But like I said, race and colour have a lot to do with it.  We just don't know why............. 

This is not a NBA thing or a color thing. 1 year is a very light sentence for what he was accused of. He should be thankful and the victim should be outraged. However, money and social ties often are an excuse to be more lenient. Because he has famil support and is financially well off, that does play a mitigating factor in Court sentences. Had he been low or middle class and his family was broken then he is looking at 5 years.

If you doubt it then ask any prosecutor or defense attorney how they railroad the poor.

I think it has more the do with the socio-economic situation than skin color.  But you keeping thinking it's not predujice that motivates your interpretation of statistics, obviously that is your reality.

The statistics I posted don't need any interpreting at all, not one bit.   You are a perfect example of a huge problem we have in our society today though because we can't be honest or speak freely without somebody starting the prejudice crap and accusations. 

Both my neighbours on each side of me are black, and we have a great relationship.  As a matter of fact my 11 year old son's best friend is the neighbours little boy.   I've been friends with people outside of my race for most of my life, but you're right... you know me better then that.  All I had to do was simply pose real stats, FACTS and that's all it took for you to read me like a book.

You got me... 

I believe it was Charles Barkley who said that Miller "couldn't grab the rim unless you put a Big Mac on it."