Blog Entry

The Poll Attacks

Posted on: December 19, 2011 3:42 pm
Edited on: December 19, 2011 3:46 pm
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By Gary Parrish

UNLV should be ranked ahead of Illinois.

Only six Associated Press voters don't understand this.

But hopefully those six will learn their lesson in this week's Poll Attacks.

Associated Press poll: Leaving UNLV off your ballot is wrong.

Leaving UNLV off your ballot that includes Illinois?

That's way wrong.

But six AP voters -- Bill Cole, Elton Alexander, Pete Glibert, Roger Clarkson, Ron Morris and Rod Beard -- managed to do exactly that this week, and so now they find themselves in the middle of the Poll Attacks. Merry Christmas, fellas. Did you see what UNLV did to Illinois on Saturday in Chicago? The Rebels won 64-48. And, no, head-to-head matchups aren't the deciding factor on everything. They can't be. But UNLV doesn't only have that 16-point victory over the Illini in Illinois, the Rebels also have a better overall body of work.

UNLV has wins over No. 5 North Carolina and No. 25 Illinois, and the Rebels' only losses are at No. 13 Wisconsin and at Wichita State, which is receiving votes in the AP poll.  Meantime, Illinois has zero wins over schools currently ranked. So UNLV has better wins than Illinois, no real bad losses and -- don't forget this -- a dominant win over the Illini in Chicago. In my opinion, both schools should be ranked. So I'm not killing Illinois. All I'm saying is that UNLV should also be ranked. And definitely above Illinois. Because ranking Illinois while not ranking UNLV is almost as dumb as Will Barton being an official candidate for an award given annually to the nation's top point guard.

Coaches poll:
Would you drop a team because it lost a game when three players fouled out?

Of course you would.

We all would.

Which is why I have no problem with the coaches dropping Xavier from ninth to 15th in this week's poll even though Tu Holloway, Mark Lyons and Dez Wells did not play in Sunday's home loss to Oral Roberts, because they essentially fouled out of the game before it started via the roles they played in that brawl against Cincinnati. They were all suspended because of their actions. So why shouldn't Xavier pay a price for that?

An injury?

That's nobody's fault.

That's why Ohio State didn't suffer when Jared Sullinger's absence cost the Buckeyes at Kansas.

But Holloway, Lyons and Wells are responsible for putting their team in a bad spot just like when somebody else's starting center picks up two dumb fouls early and puts his team in a bad spot. When that team loses, we don't excuse it and say, "But that team wouldn't have lost if its center would've played smarter." So why should we excuse Xavier's loss and say, "But the Musketeers wouldn't have lost if Holloway, Lyons and Wells would've acted appropriately against Cincinnati?"

Answer: We shouldn't.

So I'm OK with how the coaches handled Xavier.

It's similar to how we handled the Musketeers in the Top 25 (and one).

And I realize this is sort of a reverse Poll Attack, but whatever. I wanted to make that point.
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Comments

Since: Aug 24, 2006
Posted on: December 21, 2011 10:08 am
 

The Poll Attacks

My "shut up and move on" comment was directed at IU fans that were both saying the polls shouldn't exist and also complaining about IU's ranking in said polls.



Makes perfect sense that someone would complain about something they don't agree with.  Also makes perfect sense that if someone doesn't agree with something, that it shouldn't exist, due to the same flaw that they disagree with.

Telling people to "shut up" is rude.  I don't allow my children to say that.  When you say it, you appear to be acting like a little kid who got proven wrong and have no ther recourse but to say "shut up and move on".



Since: Aug 24, 2006
Posted on: December 21, 2011 10:02 am
 

The Poll Attacks

My "shut up and move on" comment was directed at IU fans that were both saying the polls shouldn't exist and also complaining about IU's ranking in said polls.



Why would they complain about a ranking they agree with.  And if they don't agree with the ranking, it makes total sense for them to think it should not exist.
To tell someone to "shut up" is rude, my children are not allowed to say it.  It is offensive.  You just look like a kid who got their feelings hurt.



Since: Aug 24, 2006
Posted on: December 21, 2011 9:57 am
 

The Poll Attacks

I disagree.  And even think you are a little delusinal....  or maybe just stubbornly obstinate.  Either way, I disagree.  You have no clue, thats my opinion.  Without the KY win you see a big 10 team, undefeated at 10-0 with no team coming within 11 points and an average margin of victory of 27 points per game not in the top 25.  That has never happend before in the history of the polls.  But that is your stand. 

Absurd.





Since: May 31, 2011
Posted on: December 21, 2011 9:53 am
 

The Poll Attacks

I think you are confused to what this article (in which this message board is attached) is about.  Its attacking the voting of the polls.  That is what Parrish is doing.  If you are not interested in people complaining about the voting, why are you reading Parrish's article based on, well, COMPLAINING ABOUT THE RANKINGS.  I came here to complain about Parrish's 22 ranking of IU.   There is NO WAY IU deserve to be placed out of the top 20.  THATS WHAT I SAID.  THIS IS WHERE I AM SUPPOSE TO SAY IT.  I think you need to shut up and move on, or at least be more cival to those express their own, POLL ATTACK.  You appear to be acting like a baby when you say "shut up and move on" or calling someone a "smartass", those are not the ways you win a debate and instead make you appear to be frustrated by being proven wrong.

My "shut up and move on" comment was directed at IU fans that were both saying the polls shouldn't exist and also complaining about IU's ranking in said polls.

Did you do both of those things?  Do you think that comment was directed at you?  Do you think you are the duly designated representative of all IU fans?  Did you bother to read everything I wrote, or are you just trying to pull particular phrases out of context as you've done this entire discussion?

If you want to critique the way people vote in the polls, I have no issue with that.  If you want to say the polls are meaningless right now, that's fine too.  

But if you think they are meaningless, then say so and move on.  Don't biatch and complain about things that you've already stated are meaningless.   



Since: May 31, 2011
Posted on: December 21, 2011 9:45 am
 

The Poll Attacks

Your resume is better than Baylor's maybe UConn's.  That's about it.

Beyond that, it's either comperable or worse.

Here's the part that you seem to be missing...


YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE NOD OVER TEAMS WITH HIGHER EXPECTATIONS UNTIL YOU PROVE YOU ARE BETTER (MORE THAN ONCE) OR THEY PROVE THEY AREN'T AS GOOD (MORE THAN ONCE)

RIGHT NOW, EVERY WIN ON YOUR RESUME WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE UK GAME IS BOTH IN LINE WITH THE MEDIA'S PRE SEASON EXPECTATIONS AND THE EXPECTATIONS OF A TEAM RANKED IN THE TEENS (WHER IU IS CURRENTLY RANKED)  

SO THOSE WINS HAVEN'T PROVEN ANYTHING.  GOOD, BAD, OR OTHERWISE.

THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE AN OVERINFLATED VIEW OF YOUR RESUME.  YOU THINK "UNDEFETEAD" = "AWESOME" AND IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT! MOST OF THOSE WINS ARE MEANINGLESS.

BACK TO THE UK WIN.  THIS IS THE ONLY THING ON YOUR RESUME TO SUGGEST THAT IU IS BETTER THAN EXPECTED.  AND IT IS STILL JUST ONE THING.  AND IU HAS GOTTEN CREDIT FOR THAT WIN BY BEING RANKED WHERE THEY ARE.  WITHOUT THE UK WIN YOU WOULN'T BE SNIFFING THE TOP 25 RIGHT NOW.  

AND FOR THE TENTH TIME, IT TAKES MORE THAN ONE WIN TO GET EVERYONE TO CHANGE THIER MIND.   


The polls aren't a ranking of the best teams.  They aren't a ranking of the best resumes.  They are aren't a ranking of everyon'e expectations (except for the preseason, of course)  The polls are a combination of all of those.

So you can compare resumes all you want.  That isn't the only thing that get's you your ranking.  The top 10 ranked teams don't necessarily have the best 10 resumes, but that doesn't mean IU has a top 10 resume by default.  There are plenty of other teams not ranked in the top 10 that have resumes as good as IU's.

I can also think of more than 10 teams that I think are better than IU, that I would take to beat IU on a neutral court.  

And expectations have been covered ad nauseum.

So without a top 10 resume, and without being a top 10 team, and without top 10 expectations, you expect IU to be ranked in the top 10 why exactly?  Because you're biased.  



Since: Aug 24, 2006
Posted on: December 21, 2011 9:26 am
 

The Poll Attacks

If the polls are worthless now, shut up and move on. 


I think you are confused to what this article (in which this message board is attached) is about.  Its attacking the voting of the polls.  That is what Parrish is doing.  If you are not interested in people complaining about the voting, why are you reading Parrish's article based on, well, COMPLAINING ABOUT THE RANKINGS.  I came here to complain about Parrish's 22 ranking of IU.   There is NO WAY IU deserve to be placed out of the top 20.  THATS WHAT I SAID.  THIS IS WHERE I AM SUPPOSE TO SAY IT.  I think you need to shut up and move on, or at least be more cival to those express their own, POLL ATTACK.  You appear to be acting like a baby when you say "shut up and move on" or calling someone a "smartass", those are not the ways you win a debate and instead make you appear to be frustrated by being proven wrong.




Since: Aug 24, 2006
Posted on: December 21, 2011 9:14 am
 

The Poll Attacks

You have an over inlfated idea of IU's resume.  It's good but not great.



Its simple, COMPARE.  You havn't done it.  LOOK at the others.  You are just saying IU this IU that.  IU isn't the only one WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, its is ALSO the 21 teams Parrish has ranked over them.

But you just point out IU, leave the rest of the equation out of it.  You just say, I am swayed because I am a fan of IU.  Well I am a fan of Butler too, I am not saying they deserve to be in top 25.  I am saying IU at 23 with their results isn't fair when you look at the rest.  LOOK AT IT ALL.  If you come back and say IU hasn't played anyone or beaten anyone and JUST THAT, well i have heard it, AND THINK THEY HAVE JUST AS MUCH AS THE OTHERS. Actualy more than the others when you actually look at more then wins.   Making your point, well POINTLESS.  Because a ranking IS A COMPARISON!

Don't tell me to shut and move on, I have EVERY right to complain.  Just like you have every right to disagree.   Maybe you should shut up and move on, because you can't seem to refute my point by just saying IU hasn't played anyone and then DON't compare it to the rest of the top ten WHO ALSO HAVE A WEAK RESUME.  I have looked at them, compared them, IU is right there with them.  You won't even concede the other teams have a bunch of crappy wins, and only a few have that anomoly that IU has.  Which isn't even an anomoly when you are undefeated.  It is consistency.



Since: May 31, 2011
Posted on: December 21, 2011 8:51 am
 

The Poll Attacks

You can compare the resumes all you want.  You're doing it in a biased fashion, and you're expecting the pollsters to do it in an unbiased fashion.  That simply isn't going to happen.

You have an over inlfated idea of IU's resume.  It's good but not great.

The pollsters have the expectations that IU isn't a top 10 team.  Thats why they weren't ranked to start the season.

Teams with similar or even worse resumes that were expected to be good teams will get the benifit of the doubt over teams that were expected to be worse.  It may not be fair, but that's the way it is.

If IU is indeed a top 10 team, that will be proven in the next few weeks.  A single statistical anamoly (the UK game) isn't enough to get IU into the top 10.

Expectations play a huge part in early season polls because there simply isn't enough to go on otherwise.  

I find it funny that IU fans seem to be simultaneously suggesting that the polls shouldn't exist this time of year, and complain that they should be ranked higher (ya know... in those polls that shouldn't even exist)

If the polls are worthless now, shut up and move on.  If they are that important to you, just wait a few week, if you're team doesn't drop the ball, they'll get into the top 10.  If they do, then that ranking in the teens doesn't seem so unreasonable now does it?

Polls don't move in knee-jerk fashion.  That's what you're asking them to do.  



 



Since: Aug 24, 2006
Posted on: December 21, 2011 8:09 am
 

The Poll Attacks

You want to believe that IU is a top 10 team, so you're going to rationalize it any way you can.  I don't care if IU is a top 10 team or not.  They may be, but I haven't seen proof of that yet.  I've seen one game that makes me think they might be better than I originally expected


No, you want to believe that IU is not deserving of a higher ranking, when their entire body of work shows differnt, who they have played, how they have played, how much they have won by.  I mean really, they are destroying those teams you say are bad.  Beaten those teams 3 teams that are not quite bad by double digits and handled the consensus number 3 team in the nation the entire game and staved off a last 3 min comeback with a 3 point shot.  I then compare the teams, thats what you do when you rank them.  You can't convince me that just because IU has played some cream puffs, they don't deserve a higher ranking.  I tried to illustrate that IU has a very comparable schedule to MOST OF THE others in the top 10.  VERY FEW HAVE A DECENT SCHEDULE at this point.  If you look at IU and say their SOS isn't that great, you have to say the same for EVERY TEAM with the exception of a few.  But IU is undefeated with their schedule, killing teams they should be by 32ppg.  Who else is doing that?  Why are other teams deserving of a high ranking with their weak schedule and IU is not?  Not sure why you can't get the concept.   YOU HAVE TO COMPARE.  you just can't say they have a week schedule.  IU has proven more than most of the top 10 at this point.  Which is my point.

I concede the preseason expectations.  I don't agree with them.  I do not agree that IU schedule and results are far inferior to other teams.  IU has PROVEN itself so far this year.  The results speak for themselves.  Not just undefeated but how they are undefeated AND beating a top 5 team.

How many teams have beaten a top 5 team and are not in the top 23?  Heck how many are not in the top 10? Kansas is parrish's 11 would be it.  They are hardly blowing their creampuffs out by 32ppg and have 2 losses.  The rest are in the top 5.  Again, we are talking about Parrish's pole.

Now you may have a different opinion. but NOTHING you have said makes sense when YOU COMPARE the rest of the top 10 teams.  I can say that about most of them.  I mean look at Kentucky.  Have 2 good win against NC and Kansas and thats it.  Eww a two game resume against IU's 1 game.  AND THEY HAVE A LOSS.  Get it, you have to compare.  (not that I think KY should be lower)



Since: May 31, 2011
Posted on: December 21, 2011 6:00 am
 

The Poll Attacks

The preseason rankings don't hurt you.  Pre season expectations hurt you and those will exist regardless of whether or not any rankings are published or not.  Bias exists in peoples minds, not in the polls.

The other thing hurting IU is their crappy schedule.  This is not debatable.  You've beaten 1 really good team, 3 not quite bad teams, and the rest are just awful.  

You want to believe that IU is a top 10 team, so you're going to rationalize it any way you can.  I don't care if IU is a top 10 team or not.  They may be, but I haven't seen proof of that yet.  I've seen one game that makes me think they might be better than I originally expected.  I'm going to need to see more proof before I change my mind.  That's not unreasonable.  That's a rational response.   This is good advice for every aspect of life, not just basketball rankings.  Don't read too much into one isolated event.  Look for trends and patterns.  

That being said, the NCAA selection committee has done a remarkable job over the years in rewarding teams for their work during the regular season.  I can't recall a time when a #1 seed didn't have a top 5 body of work.  

But if IU ends up picking up some more quality wins and doesn't drop any bad games, they will be rewarded for it at the end of the season.  And their ranking, will move up accordingly.  Just because the pollsters don't have the same knee-jerk reaction to a win that IU fans have doesn't mean they aren't paying attention.  As IU builds their case for a top 10 ranking, they will move up.   

But as mentioned before, this will work itself out.  If IU really is a legitimate top 10 team then they should beat OSU at home and MSU on the road.  That's what top 10 teams do.  If they don't win those games, don't expect IU to crack the top 10.  If they do, then they' will.  It's pretty much that simple.  


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