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Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

Posted on: May 12, 2009 9:06 pm
 

Leave it to David Ortiz to put things into perspective when asked whether he's "reached out" to Manny Ramirez since Ramirez's 50-game suspension.

"It's hard, man," Ortiz said. "You can't even reach out to Manny when Manny was here. Manny changed his (phone) number. Who knows? Manny's on his own, always.

"There were times when we were playing together and said 'Let's meet at noon ... and have lunch and go to the field' and he'd say, 'Oh, OK.' Next thing you know, you can't reach him. And you just talked to him an hour ago."

It might be awhile before Ortiz even has a chance to speak with his old Boston slugging buddy. For one thing, Ramirez hasn't surfaced publicly since last Thursday, when his suspension was announced. For another, not only does he have a different number (again), according to Ortiz, but Ortiz says, he hasn't even spoken with Ramirez since late last season.

"I don't know what I would tell him," Ortiz said. "I haven't talked to (the media) about that and I won't. I don't know what to tell you.

"That's not the guy I know. That guy worked hard every day. It's going to be something crazy and hard to deal with."

Ortiz says that his memory of Ramirez in Boston is that of a guy who declined even pain medication from the trainer.

"The trainer would give him Tylenol, and he'd throw it in the trash can," Ortiz said.

Asked if he is upset with Ramirez, Ortiz thought for several seconds.

"It confuses me," he said. "But that's something I don't really want to talk about now."

 

Comments

Since: Oct 11, 2007
Posted on: May 14, 2009 1:26 am
 

Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

Dude, I am not trying to mislead readers. David Ortiz's career path is well known. It is also not consistent with a maturing ML hitter. Do you have any examples of other players, preferably outside of the steroid era, who had similar career arcs as Ortiz's? That would be not producing a single 30 HR/ 100 RBI season until age 27 then following that by becoming arguably the best hitter in baseball with 3 seasons over 40 HR w/outrageous slugging percentages. Then dropping off of the face of the earth.

I also repeat that he works out with ANGEL PRESINAL, who was ARod's trainer and the trainer of several MLB players that have been connected with steroids. Presinal was also banned from MLB clubhouses for his connection to steroids. His close relationship with Presinal is much more damaging than any association with Manny.

If you would like more circumstantial evidence, wrist/ joint injuries are entirely consistent with steroid use because the joints are not able to handle the stress created by the increased muscle strength. Irregular heartbeats are very consistent with steroid use and Big Papi has had the condition.

Also, according to Lou Merloni, the Red Sox had a doctor speak to players about steroid use and the doctor advised them that taking steroids and sitting on a couch would make you stronger than working out clean. In other words, you can get benefit from juice without working out like a body builder (see Pudge Rodriguez).

That said, I would defend him from accusations as well if I were an Ortiz or Sox fan just as I would have (and did) defended ARod and Clemens before it became clear that they were guilty. This post was not originally meant to be an in depth review of the steroid case against Ortiz. It was meant to say that Ortiz should drop the nonsense about being "confused" and stick with "no comment" because he could be next.



Since: May 6, 2008
Posted on: May 13, 2009 6:29 pm
 

Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

Nice try...not buying what you are selling. Do the research and stop trying to take all the circumstancial evidence that is week at best.

Prior to you making inferences that someone that has never been investigated, accused or caught with Roids of cheating, why don't you at least look at the facts. Check out his carear statistics which show a steady increase in HR production which is consitent with a maturing ML hitter, age / hr =  24 / 10, 25/ 18, 26 / 20, 27 / 31, 28 / 41, 29 / 47, 30 / 54 , 31 / 35 , 32 /23*. Your reach was misleading readers into thinking that he went from 10 to 54 HRs (see Brady Anderson below)

* 23 HR due to serious wrist injury to which he tried most of the season to play through. Anyone who has followed baseball for a while knows that the wrist are key to power and have robbed many players of power in the past when they have injured their wrists.

The Bold  age / hr numbers are clear indication of what has been historically known as the most productive years of players carears. As is the age of 27 being the statistical breakout year - ask any fantasy player.

These are reference points to use that would indicate statisitcal anomolies point to the distinct possibility of steriod use:

Brady Anderson

 - 16 HR in 1995 to 50 in 1996 never hit more than 24 in any other year in his 15 year carear

 - During his productive years 27 - 31 he hit 20 HR once (2, 21, 13, 12, 16)


Barry Bonds

- Never hit more than 46 (age 28) in his prime production years, then hits 73 at age of 36 after a steady decline in HRs as he aged from 31.
- As above after normal decrease in power into 30s, at age 34 hits 34 HRs, age 35 hits 49 then the spike to 73. Coincidently the year after the McGuire / Sosa HR chase in 1998. Consistent with the reports that he was jealous of the attention they were getting and concerned with his declining skills.

All right enough...

This year he is 33 going on 34 and coming of his wrist injury without the protection of Manny.

I think there is enought evidence judging by the facts  (stats and consistent production based on historical age/ stats) that I will give Ortiz the benefit of the doubt, after all he is 6-4 230 LBS and is not the posterboy for Muscle Magazine.

I hope this makes my point and that others with think prior to randomly accusing someone solely based on his supposed relationship with a person caught. The further facts are that Ortiz and Manny were not as close as many people think. Read Miller's article in CBS which Ortiz is quoted as saying he has not even talked to Manny since last season. Further there were many reports in Boston that the two of them had a strained releationship b/c Ortiz who is a respectful man was disappointed with Manny's antics in Boston.




Since: Oct 11, 2007
Posted on: May 13, 2009 10:04 am
 

Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

First of all I didn't make any blanket statements except that players should keep their mouths shut. Unless they are going to fess up to what they have done or to what they know others have done or what management has done (see Lou Merloni) or what the players' union has done then they shouldn't comment. It is disingenuous.

I am well aware that Ortiz is a classy player and a media darling and that ARod and Manny are not. That is probably why his name has never been floated in any prominent way regarding PEDs. I am also well aware of the numbers. You can believe whatever you want but the facts are that he saw a highly questionable spike in offensive production at age 27 (he was probably more like 29 at the time since Latin ballplayers always lie about their age) after being little more than a scrub throught his early twenties (his first 6 years in the league - never slugged over .500), he has seen an equally questionable early decline in his early thirties (though as previously noted he is probably older than he says he is), he is from and lives in the Dominican Republic where PEDs seem to grow on trees (and can be obtained over the counter, legally, and anonymously), and he admittedly works out with the same banned for steroids trainer (Angel Presinal) as ARod. Also, in an interview he gave to the Boston Herald some time ago he stated that he doesn't know if he ever took PEDs, which is a common defense for players that have been caught (I didn't know what I was taking!).

That said, I acknowledge that I don't know what David Ortiz, or anyone else for that matter, has or has not taken. I remember a time, though, when players hit their stride early in their careers and maintained a mostly similar level of production (or decline) until they retired (i.e. Cal Ripken, Kent HrBek, Kirby Puckett, Dave Winfield, Jim Rice, Fred Lynn, etc.). I am also from a time when it was highly unusual for a player to hit 40 homeruns and unheard of for a player to hit 50. Reggie Jackson, perhaps the greatest HR hitter of his generation, only hit more than 40 HRs twice in his 21 year career and only slugged over .600 once (when he was 23 years old). So forgive me if I am highly skeptical of anyone who regularly slugged over .600 and went over 40 and 50 HRs in the "steroid era".



Since: May 6, 2008
Posted on: May 12, 2009 11:28 pm
 

Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

Following up on my previous response:

Here are the facts that you specific

Batting StatsYearTeamGABRHHRRBIBBSOSBCSOBPS

LGAVG1997MIN154910161621900.353.449

.3271998MIN862784777946397210.371.4

46.2771999MIN1020100051200.200.000.

0002000MIN130415591171063578110.364.446.2822001MIN8930346711848406810.324.475.

2342002MIN125412521122075438712.339

.500.2722003BOS1284487912931101588300.369.592.2

882004BOS15058294175411397513300.380.603.

3012005BOS1596011191804714810212410.397.60

4.3002006BOS1515581151605413711911710.413.636.2872007BOS1495491161823511711110331.445.62

1.3322008BOS109416741102389707410.369.507.26

42009BOS311161326014202601.338.328.224
You state he went from 10 HR in 400 AB to 50+ in <600, you conveniently left out that your reference was 6 years later. Is it not more likely that he realized a steady increase in his power as he matured as a baseball hitter, as his HR numbers indicate (i.e., a steady increase 10, 18, 20, 31, 41, 54)? Rather than making blanket statements look at the facts. This does not look like someone that it is clear is on steriods. There is no spike a steady rise in production followed by a stready decline into the mid thirties coupled with a wrist injury (which has sapped the power from many hitters). These are the facts and are not clearly consistent with the numbers of someone on steriods (see Brady Anderson 16 in 1995 to 50 in 1996) is the reason.



Since: May 6, 2008
Posted on: May 12, 2009 11:08 pm
 

Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

Your statements are completely meaningless...What did you expect him to say? He saw him doing Roids! Your inference that Ortiz is on Roids is nothing more than a reach as it leaves out important factors such as he was a part time player for the Twins in a pitchers park in a different system. He moved to Boston a hitter friendly park became a full time player in a station to station hitting system. It is irresponsible to start pointing fingers on message boards, especially when Ortiz is someone that has never been caught or investigated for steriods and moreover, if you actually followed him, he is a very respectful and dignified player.

Manny and Arod are unlikable characters with questionable ethics. See last year's performance in getting himself run out of Boston by not playing. Let's stick with the facts.



Since: Oct 11, 2007
Posted on: May 12, 2009 10:43 pm
 

Ortiz on Manny: "It confuses me"

These dudes should just hold their tongues. Especially ones who went from hitting 10 HRs in 400 ABs to 50+ HRs in less than 600 ABs. It is just a matter of time before it all comes out. Somebody knows about everybody. Think about it.


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