Blog Entry

The Poll Attacks

Posted on: March 1, 2010 4:37 pm
Edited on: March 1, 2010 9:47 pm
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First things first: I knew Syracuse would be No. 1 in the AP and Coaches polls.

And guess what?

It's not stupid to have Syracuse No. 1.

It's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I don't agree. But it's not irrational even though Kansas has just as many wins over fellow Top 25 teams and a better RPI, even though KU's two losses came on the road while Syracuse's came at home, even though Jerry Palm still has KU as the No. 1 overall seed. I could use most of that information -- and perhaps all of that information -- to try to convince you that it's stupid to rank Syracuse No. 1. But I'm not going to do that because that's never been the point. I don't think you're stupid if you think Syracuse should be No. 1; I think you're stupid if you think a good case can't also be made for Kansas.

But I'm over it.

I'm more worried about the coach voting Duke No. 1.

That guy is an idiot.

He's about to get Poll Attacked!

AP poll: If Syracuse fans think I'm stupid for having the Orange at No. 2, then I bet they think Tom Keegan is brain-dead. Keegan has the Orange third on his ballot behind Kansas and Kentucky. And did I mention Tom works for the newspaper in Lawrence, Kansas? Yep, the sports editor in Kansas ranked KU No. 1 and Syracuse No. 3. So please click this link and direct your hatred toward him, and forget about me. Thanks.

Coaches poll: It's OK to have Duke in the top four, projected as a No. 1 seed, whatever. All reasonable. But there is no way to reasonably put Duke ahead of both Kansas and Syracuse on a ballot like one coach did this week. Duke has a 25-4 record featuring a loss to North Carolina State. Meantime, Syracuse has a 27-2 record featuring no losses to non-NCAA tournament teams, and Kansas has a 27-2 record featuring no losses to non-NCAA tournament teams. So Syracuse and Kansas both have more wins than Duke, fewer losses than Duke, better wins than Duke, fewer questionable losses than Duke, and I could go on for days.

So who's the guilty coach?

No way of knowing.

Coaches ballots are private.

I can't see them.

But my guess is that the guy who voted Duke No. 1 is the same guy who voted Murray State No. 25 after a loss to Morehead State. Murray State is a great OVC team, but that doesn't translate to a Top 25 team, not when the Racers have four losses to unranked teams and just one win over a team ranked in the top 100 of the RPI.
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Comments

Since: Feb 27, 2010
Posted on: March 1, 2010 8:03 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

You "knew" Syracuse would be number 1 in the AP and Coaches polls? When did you know this? Certainly NOT before the SU-Villanova game, which, coincidentally, was AFTER your silly proclamation. Since then, it's spin control. You DIDN'T suggest that it would be reasonable for SU to pass KU NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED in the NOVA GAME...that little caveat might've saved you some grief. Doesn't matter...I'm just laughing over the fact that you now claim to KNOW that SU would be number 1.

Speaking of body of work and quality wins, where is Texas ranking these days? IF you want to discount beating a then top 10 UNC, you should probably do the same with Texas, huh?

Kansas is a great team, no question, but you didn't say Kansas "could" remain number 1, you said they "should"...a big difference. Don't melt in the rain of criticism now and suggest you meant "could"...or CLAIM you KNEW SU would be number 1, after the fact. You didn't...so quit spinning it.



Since: Apr 26, 2008
Posted on: March 1, 2010 7:58 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

The Poll Attacks just became a classic example of "the pot calling the kettle black."

Oh, and I guess it jumped the shark too.

Game over.



Since: Mar 1, 2010
Posted on: March 1, 2010 7:54 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Just read comments you made on the local Syracuse radio show, Your right, please keep  voting for Kansas for #1. With the arguments you made such as " I count Georgetown games as one because they are the same team" , pretty shows that you are quite an astute member of the college basketball press corps.  However you vote if you feel you can justify it with this type of response, Syracuse fans would rather you vote for someone else.
Another gem Parish says he  grades on the "overall body of work". He rejects the 7-0 record vs. ranked teams because that is against teams ranked at the time. Kansas has more wins against teams ranked right now, (3 for SU vs. 4 for Kansas). The UNC game "doesn't mean anything right now.
The UNC team of today stinks, but the one we faced in November was pretty damn good.  They beat Ohio State with Evan Turner.  They beat Michigan State, who was ranked 9 at the time and is still #11.  They lost by just a basket at then #5 Kentucky.

They started rolling down hill in January and Roy couldn't get it stopped, so that the team you have now is just shell shocked.  But they were pretty good in November and December and their record at the time - who they played and how they did against them - proves it.
I was going to say Shame on you Gary Parish, but Shame on you CBS for having this tool spew such drivel!




Since: Mar 1, 2010
Posted on: March 1, 2010 7:37 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Ok you say that Kansas' two losses are better losses than Syracuse because Kansas lost on the road vs Syracuse losses at home.  Last time i checked road wins count for more come tournament time vs home wins.  

Also, let's look at two common opponents that both Kansas and Syracuse have played.  Cornell which both teams played at home.  Kansas won by 5 and Syracuse won by 15.  Another common opponent was Memphis. Neutral site for Kansas and a home game for Syracuse.  Kansas won by 2 points and Syracuse won by 17.

There is way more to both teams than home/road wins/losses



Since: Oct 8, 2008
Posted on: March 1, 2010 7:37 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Still way off...Syracuse didnt just win those few games against top 25 teams.  Did you forget their wins they built up at the beginning of the year against Florida, UNC (when they were ranked), and California!  Add those games to the ones you have listed above and Kansas DOES NOT have more top 25 wins than Syracuse.  You dug yourself quite a hole...good try getting out of it.



Since: Jan 3, 2010
Posted on: March 1, 2010 7:08 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

I seriously don't know how you can argue with Syracuse at #1. I am no fan of Syracuse, but their body of work to date is extremely impressive. 2 losses in the toughest conference in college basketball has to be enough of an argument in favor of the 'Cuse...and this is coming from a Kentucky fan.





Since: Mar 9, 2008
Posted on: March 1, 2010 6:40 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Had Syracuse won at Vilanova as good as they beat them at home, then SU's argument for first is a little better.

But SU fans cannot fight against those numbers above.

Road wins and the RPI are the ultimate indicator of how good a team is.  And the ultimate indicator is number of true road games against teams in the RPI Top 25.

Even if fans compared road wins for KU and SU to the RPI Top 65, KU still comes out better. SU only has 4 true Road wins against teams in the RPI top 65.



Since: Dec 15, 2008
Posted on: March 1, 2010 6:40 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

both you and the rpi calculation favor road losses over home losses

syracuse and kansas have 27-2 records, but syracuse has the tougher strength of schedule (9th vs 17th for kansas). i am assuming that kansas has the better rpi because their losses were on the road. also duke with their four road losses has a better rpi than syracuse with only a marginally better strength of schedule (8th for duke).

thus "kansas has the better rpi" and "ku's two losses came on the road, while syracuse's came at home" are essentially the same argument presented as if they represent two different points, which they are not.

and, in fact, jerry palm now has syracuse as the top overall seed in his latest bracket projection. syracuse plays the lehigh/jackson state winner in the first round.

lastly, both syracuse and kansas have four wins against current top 25 teams. it is true that syracuse's wins are against only three teams, since they have two wins over georgetown. kansas will have a chance to beat k-state this week for a fifth top 25 win.




Since: Mar 9, 2008
Posted on: March 1, 2010 6:32 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Posted on: March 1, 2010 5:43 pmScore: 14 

The Poll Attacks

wait, how does this guy have an article?  SU rolled GT twice, so we have the same number of top 25 wins.  also, his reliance on RPI is bootie...look at who has more victories against teams in the top 50 of the RPI...that is right, SU.  lazy research, lazy writing, lazy logic. 

** What's more lazy? Seeing that SU has more Top 50 RPI wins than Kansas or the oversight that Kansas has 4 true ROAD wins against teams in the RPI Top 25, while SU has exactly 2 true ROAD wins over teams in the RPI Top 25?

Neutral games don't count as road games either.




Since: Mar 19, 2007
Posted on: March 1, 2010 6:23 pm
 

The Poll Attacks

Gary,

(not coming from a biased side one way or the other, and it really doesn't matter a whole lot to me since it's no. 1 and no.2, but wanted your take on a counter-argument)

I simply don't see how Kansas' body of work is necessarily "better" than Syracuse's.  Kansas has (going off of RPI rankings) 6 top 25 wins to 5 for 'Cuse, while Cuse has 9 top 50 wins compared to 8 for Kansas. They each have a loss in top 25 and 2 in top 50. So let's say they are a wash now.

Firstly, Syracuse is undefeated on the road (true Kansas is undefeated at home, but it does them no good when they can't play there in the NCAA tournament). This should be in favor of Syracuse.

Secondly, and this was the sticking point with me, Syracuse has a WHOPPING record of 16-2 against teams in top 100 - Kansas' record is 11-2. Sixteen wins! And they are 8-0 in those games on the road/neutral - Kansas has a road/neutral record against top 100 of 5-2.

I won't make an argument about common opponents - they both won all 4, and although Syracuse played better in those 4 than Kansas did, that would be getting into an argument over point differentials (although if we wanted to play that game, both teams are tied with 6 single digit victories).

I think Kansas is a fantastic team and think they will be our National Champions, as I think they are the best team in the country (much like North Carolina last year), while I see 'Cuse falling asleep at the wheel in the tournament and possibly getting ousted in the sweet 16 or elite 8. That said, I thought the same thing about Pittsburgh, but I also realized that given the body of work, Pittsburgh deserved to be number 1 (until Louisville took it over in the final week of the regular season).  Syracuse and Kansas have identical records, but 'Cuse has four more top 100 wins and one more top 50 win while being undefeated on the road, and Syracuse has a better SOS.

I just don't see an argument where Syracuse really loses, ya know? I mean, I think they are so amazingly close it really doesn't matter, and I think that if Kansas beats Kansas State then we can talk about Kansas having 2 more top 25 wins than Syracuse and that'd put THEM on top (although I hope not - as an Ole Miss fan, Kansas St. is our meal ticket!), but for right now I just think Syracuse has, at the very least, a more complete body of work.


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