Now that I have brought the Dionne, Laleur question to the table, some insight perhaps Montreal would have take Dionne over Lafleur...
Richardson Cup 1971
The Eastern Canadian championship of 1971 was the most controversial of the series ever played for the Richardson Cup. It was also the last Eastern Canadian championship to be played before the Memorial Cup tournament began in 1972.
The series that featured future NHL StarsGuy Lafleur and Marcel Dionne , never lived up to the potential on ice brilliance that could have been. Disputes off the ice and erupting violence abruped the series before it was finished.
The Black Hawks and Remparts series was intense on many levels. Besides the strong rivalry between Anglophone and Francophone hockey teams and Canadian citizens in general, there was unfinished business between Marcel Dionne and the Remparts coach Maurice Filion . Dionne had been coached by Filion in 1968 as a member of the Drummondville Rangers of the Quebec Junior Hockey League. When the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League formed in 1969, Dionne departed to play in the OHA, which was seen as a higher-calibre level of competition, to hone his skills. Filion vowed revenge against his OHA team. This rivalry was further fueled by the desire of Francophone nationalists to have a Canadian champion from a Quebec team in a Quebec-based league.
The Remparts won the first game 4-2 played in St. Catharines and televised by closed circuit to over 8,000 spectators in Quebec arenas. Despite the win, Filion complained about the referee bias against his players, calling it anti-Francophone. The Black Hawks won game 2 by a score of 8-3, to tie the series at 1 game each.
Game 3 was played in the Colisée de Québec to an overflow crowd, seeing the Remparts win 3-1. There were a total of 102 penalty minutes called, 77 of those were against the Black Hawks. Brian MacKenize of St. Catharines would be suspended for one game after confronting a linesman.
The next game of the series was uglier than the last game. Another overflow crowd saw the Remparts win game 4 by a score of 6-1. As the game wore on, more and more fights broke out on the ice, involving players leaving the penalty box to join the fray. The St. Catharines players were escorted off the ice by police amidst the hurling of debris from Quebec fans. After the game an angry mob surrounded the St. Catharines team bus on its way to the motel, and was given a police escort to safety. The mob circled the motel until the early hours of the morning.
Game 5 was played on neutral ice at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto, which the Black Hawks won 6-3 to narrow the series 3 games to 2 for Quebec. That was the last game played.
The parents of the St. Catharines players refused to send their children back to Quebec City for fear of the violence that occurred after game four. The Remparts refused to play anywhere else but their home rink, including any neutral ice in the province of Quebec. The problem was further confounded with threats surfacing from the FLQ (Front de libération du Québec) against St. Catharines players.
CAHA president Dawson declared the series to be over when no further compromise could be reached, and he had received official notice from St. Catharines that the team would not return to the Colisée. As a result, the Remparts went on to compete for the Memorial Cup by default, which they won, defeating the Edmonton Oil Kings.
Dionne was the third of six men to reach the 700-goal plateau, and currently ranks fourth among all-time goal scorers, with 731. He is ranked fifth in points, with 1771. He is ninth in career assists with 1,040. He was second in assists, goals, and points when he retired in 1989 (he is 70 goals, 9 assists, and 79 points behind Gordie Howe in all categories).
He was also the last active player in the NHL that participated in the 1972 Summit Series . Despite not playing in the 1972 Summit Series, he did play for Team Canada in the 1976 Canada Cup and the 1981 Canada Cup. For the 1976 Canada Cup, his linesmates were Bobby Hull and Phil Esposito . He was also on a line with Lanny McDonald and Darryl Sittler and they were on the ice when the tournament winning goal was scored. While on the 1981 team, he was on a line with Wayne Gretzky and Guy Lafleur . <sup id="cite_ref-autogenerated1_1-1" class="reference">[ 2] </sup>
Marcel Dionne was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1992. In 1998, he was ranked number 38 on The Hockey News ' list of the 100 Greatest Hockey Players, the highest-ranking player to have not won a Stanley Cup since 2001 when No. 14-ranked Ray Bourque won with the Colorado Avalanche . Dionne had not come close to doing so, as he never advanced beyond the second round of the playoffs. When the Los Angeles Kings finally reached the Stanley Cup finals in 1993, after advancing to and winning their first conference finals, Dionne gave Dave Taylor a congratulatory call.
The former Centre Civique arena in Drummondville was renamed Centre Marcel Dionne in his honour after his retirement.
Dionne currently resides in Niagara Falls, Canada and owns Marcel Dionne enterprises despite never playing, or living there as a player. He is an occasional member of the Buffalo Sabres Alumni Hockey Team . He is also a Royal Ambassador for the Kings organization.
He should have never left the Province of Quebec ^^
* erratum* I had forgot Bourque won the Stanley Cup with Colorado...that was nice of Boston to send him there for 1 Cup...and poor Marcel his youngest of youngest brothers , who arguably had one tenth his talent won a Stanley Cup, with yes none other than the Montreal Canadiens...
Tretiak was one of the best goalies, never played in the nhl, I'm sure he would be right up there. That is the best comment in this thread. For some comparison - in international play between 1970 and 1984 (olympics and world championships), Tretiak posted a 1.90 GAA over 117 games. He is also a member of the hockey hall of fame even though he never played in North America (the first such player, and only one of two). Coming in 1989 (with the iron curtain still partially raised), the level of his greatness still couldn't be ignored.
As to the rest of this - it's all kind of subjective, isn't it? I mean, there are guys who we all know belong on the list somewhere (Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, Richard), but after you get past the obvious inexcludables, it becomes a matter of opinion. A Pittsburgh fan might select Coffey, Jagr, Francis, and Robitaille to join that list, but is that really true? Possibly with some, not with others. No one list is better than any other, even if you exclude one great player or another.
Additionally, anyone who says a player in their first five years playing real pro hockey deserves on this list should be taken out and shot. I mean Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, or anyone else. It's just not a fair comparison.
Not to question other people's opinions, but I'm going to. How is Joe Sakic an extra? Looking at the statistics I don't understand that. He averaged more points per game for his career than everybody on that list except for Gretzky and Lemieux. Jagr and Marcel Dionne have a higher average than everyone there too and they're not even on the list! Joe Sakic Top 15 All-Time in (most are actually Top 10):
Regular season goals
Regular season powerplay goals
Regular season shorthanded goals
Regular season winning goals
Regular season assists
Playoff points
Playoff goals
Playoff powerplay goals
Playoff winning goals
Playoff OT goals
All of that is without being in the top 25 of games played, regular season or playoff. If you're simply going by forwards and not by actual position there is now way Joe is an extra.
I'd like to see Cam Neeley make one of these lists....
Anytime someone redefines a position, that should be good enough. There was no such thing as a "power forward" until Cam. Dude had more Gordie Howe hat tricks than Gordie Howe himself I'll bet.
(if you don't know what that is, you're not a real hockey fan)
Maybe it is because he was better. It is easy really, they were contemporaries, and Stevie was better. Mario was super, just not as super as Steve Yzerman. LOL
When he played, Mario Lemieux was without question the best player in the game. And since Steve Yzerman played at the same time as Lemieux.....
hmmm... i'm probably gonna forget some people, but here goes...
LW/ C/ RW Bobby Hull - Wayne Gretzky - Gordie Howe Mark Messier - Mario Lemieux - Mike Bossy Frank Mahovlich - Jean Beliveau - Maurice Richard Luc Robitaille - Phil Esposito - Guy Lafleur
Bench - Marcel Dionne, Stan Mikita, Ted Lindsay, Gilbert Perreault
D Bobby Orr - Raymond Bourque Larry Robinson - Paul Coffey Denis Potvin - Al MacInnis
Bench - Doug Harvey, Eddie Shore
G Patrick Roy Jacques Plante
Yes, Gilbert Perreault, because he did not get the credit he was due.. legend has it, he was one of the first forwards to make the end to end rush, part of his repetoire... and because i'm a Sabre4life ! The debate is endless.. what about Michel Goulet, Joe Sakic, Stevie Y, Ron Francis, John Bucyk, Brett Hull, Scott Stevens, Mike Gartner, Denis Savard, Dale Hawerchuk... Nick Lidstrom has won alot of Norris Trophies, but he doesn't even crack the top 10, all time IMO... i'd take Scott Stevens, and Chris Chelios over him..
hmmm... i'm probably gonna forget some people, but here goes...
LW/ C/ RW Bobby Hull - Wayne Gretzky - Gordie Howe Mark Messier - Mario Lemieux - Mike Bossy Frank Mahovlich - Jean Beliveau - Maurice Richard Luc Robitaille - Phil Esposito - Guy Lafleur
Bench - Marcel Dionne, Stan Mikita, Ted Lindsay, Gilbert Perreault
D Bobby Orr - Raymond Bourque Larry Robinson - Paul Coffey Denis Potvin - Al MacInnis
Bench - Doug Harvey, Eddie Shore
G Patrick Roy Jacques Plante
Mess was a LW, early in his career.. and i'm sure he would handle himself, just fine, in the corners.. Yes, Gilbert Perreault, because he did not get the credit he was due.. legend has it, he was the first forward to make the end to end rush, a regular part of his game... The debate is endless.. what about Michel Goulet, Joe Sakic, Stevie Y, Ron Francis, John Bucyk, Brett Hull, Scott Stevens, Mike Gartner, Denis Savard, Dale Hawerchuk, Chelios, Borje Salming... Nick Lidstrom has won alot of Norris Trophies, but he doesn't even crack the top 10, all time D-men IMO... i'd take Scott Stevens, and Chris Chelios over him..
Somebody said Lemieux over Gretzky..?! FOUR 200 point seasons, for the Great One.. that's just ridiculous; Lemieux was strong on the puck.. he had dazzling moves.. excellent on breakaways.. But the Great One is the greatest offensive force the game has ever seen. He made Kurri a 70 goal scorer.. remember when he went to L.A. he turned Bernie Nichols from a 40goal, 100point man, into a 70goal , 150point man.. Gretzky was just ridiculous.. people are starting to forget how absolutely dominant he was.. Nowadays, alot of people say Ovechkin is the best player in the world ! Ovechkin has won 2 straight MVPs.. Gretz won 9 Hart trophies in 10 years..beating out HOF players like Lemieux, Yzerman, Francis, Messier, Peter Stasny, Denis Savard, to win his awards.
serge savard: It is very hard tio separate defensemen.
Tier 1: Bobby Orr
Tier 2: Doug Harvey, Red Kelly, Eddie Shore
Tier 3: Denis Potvin, V Fetisov, Larry Robinson
Tier 4: About 12-16 guys IMO Serge Savard is in this group. I don't consider Lidstrom or Bourque or Scot Stevens necessarily better than Serge Savard. I put him on neither of my two all time teams of 6 defensemen (1st and second).
But he easily could have made the top of my second team....and arguably is as good as the third tier guys where I made two picks for my 1st all time team.
Guy Lapointe: I can't say he makes my third tier of 12-16 guys. So he would be a fourth tier guy ranking from maybe 29th best all time to 50th somewhere. Personally, I really liked Guy Lapointe. He was an exciting player.
It was amazing to have three defensemen of the caliber Montreal had during their great run. All three were nearly equal in ability.
Tha great 70's Montreal team was not built on the strength of their star snipers or amazing top line, nor their great goalie Ken dryden, nmor the team concept and harmony they had, nor the great defensive forwards they employed...it was all built on those three big and movile deensemen who loved the game and were highlyu professional. A marvel really.
Assuming we'll shift a few guys from their historical positions to get the best possible team:
Line 1 - Bobby Hull - Wayne Gretzky - Gordie Howe. The greatest players of all time at their respective positions.
Line 2 - Jean Beliveau - Mario Lemieux - Maurice Richard. Now THIS would be a French Connection line!
Line 3 - Mark Messier - Phil Esposito - Mike Bossy. They'd score about a million goals AND beat the tar out of the opposition's goons.
Line 4 - Ted Lindsay - Howie Morenz - Guy Lafleur - another solid scoring line.
On the bench - Steve Yzerman, Marcel Dionne, Jaromir Jagr
D1 - Bobby Orr - Doug Harvey - the second-greatest player of all time paired with the best defensive defenseman.
D2 - Paul Coffey - Ray Bourque - second-best offensive defenseman and second-best all-around defenseman
D3 - Nicklas Lidstrom - Eddie Shore - Lidstrom's 6 Norris trophies cannot be overlooked and Shore is a legend
On the bench - Denis Potvin
Goalie 1 - Patrick Roy - won 2 Cups almost single-handedly
Goalie 2 - Martin Brodeur - hard to choose between him and Roy
Just missing the cut - Red Kelly, Terry Sawchuck, Larry Robinson, Jacques Plante, Henri Richard
This list is pretty old-school, but these guys dominated the league like few modern players have. And just because modern players are bigger and faster is an unfair comparison - Richard would have been 5'11 and 200 pounds of evil with modern nutrition, medicine, and training. Howe would have been 250lbs, fast, and skilled.
If I could literally go back in time and pluck some of the best players out of the bunch and throw them onto the ice at one time (physically impossible of course) I wouldn't neccessarily hand pick the best players of all time but the ones that played the best together. I know this isn't quite what the threads going by but if I had my choice I would take everyone from the 1970's Canadiens team, or the 1980's Oilers as my choices. There is no question these 2 teams are the most well known and possibly the most talented teams that have ever been assembled in the game of hockey. Sorry Islanders you had a great run as well but your team doesn't stand up to the 70's Habs or 80's Oilers... but its ok because my Bruins did very well and the 70's and were extremely over shadowed by a much more talented Montreal team.
One omission I see is Marcel Dionne. His biggest problem was he played on bad teams. At present he is 5th all time in scoring. The other player I would consider (even though I don't like him is Patrick Roy. You can't deny what he did over the years where ever he played.
This isnt an all time draft (I know you wanted one alf, but how bout and all time draft of a different kind ) anyways, i was thinking of making an all time team for the NHL it would be interesting to see who people would have, I think some players are locks, like Orr, Howe or Gretzky. Heres mine, i didnt really care for LW or RW just forwards
Line 1: Steve Yzerman Wayne Gretzky Bobby Hull Line 2: Mario Lemieux Gordie Howe Mark Messier Line 3: Maurice Richard Ted Lindsay Mike Bossy Line 4: Ron Francis Jean Beliveau Phil Esposito Extras: Joe Sakic, Bryan Trottier
D1: Larry Robinson Paul Coffey D2: Niklas Lidstrom Al MacInnis D3: Denis Potvin Doug Harvey Extra: Eddie Shore
Goalie: Terry Sawchuck Backup: Martin Brodeur Extra: Glen Hall
im not saying that lidstrom isnt a great defesnmen, he is, but i would rather have bobby orr. also, either take out brodeur or hal and put in patrick roy.
yes my list is the best u will see. every1s elses is noobish!!!
best? you have plante in net instead of brodeur or roy! they both are clearly better goalies than plante, shows by record,wins,losses. you might as well put geaorges laraque in there)))))
) anyways, i was thinking of making an all time team for the NHL it would be interesting to see who people would have, I think some players are locks, like Orr, Howe or Gretzky. Heres mine, i didnt really care for LW or RW just forwards