I think most of you saw Hunter Mahan hit the flagstick with an 8 iron on hole 16 in the U.S. Open. Hitting it led to a bogey from a possible birdie at a time when Mahan was -2 and in the hunt to win. Many of you golfers will have somewhat similar stories about times you've wanted to take the flagstick & toss it in the nearest body of water. What I'm most curious about are any ideas/suggestions to either change the characteristics of the flagstick or a new form of hole identification other than the flagstick. Fire away I know many golfers who are all ears when it comes how it can be improved, changed or eliminated.
While I'm on the subject of improvements, the other obstacle in golf are those yardage posts sitting dead in the middle of the fairway on some golf courses. I hate those darn thangs & of course they have been elminated nearly everywhere except a few courses where they still think it speeds up play which is BS too!
I played with a guy in Va Beach a few years ago. Fisrt hole was a par 5. He was a hacker. After about 10 mighty blows he was in a greenside trap. A couple of swings later he was still in it. With one determined swing the ball shot out. Like an sidewinder missile it shot over the green. Midway it got ensnared with the fluttering flag. Forward motion turned to horizontal motion and the nut dropped into the hole!
JimmyMC... I'm not sure that outlawing bad luck is possible or even desirable in Golf. I see no appreciable difference between Duffit Duval's near perfect shot that imbedded under the lip of the bunker, and Mahan's Flag tag.
You Could ensconce the flagstick in putty, I s'pose ... just make sure it ain't Silly Putty® . Even then, I'd restrict such measures to Tour events.
IF you restrict it to only Tour events, then you could spend a little more and go high-tech. You could imbed a Laser Pointer in the cups with an intense, colored beam of light directed to the heavens from the bottom of the cup. The golfer would ALWAYS be able to see the Laser Flag ... even from the next county or in low-light situations.
Of course, ya might hafta install a mister or a smoker in the cup as well ... to illuminate the beam of light. That would be inexpensive and technically do-able, and might act as a deterrent to people like Sergio taking a dump in the cup.
Maybe replacing the fairway grass with AstroTurf would cut down unfortunate divot lies, too.
Frankly ... I'd just like to see the mechanical ballwashers replaced with WickedWeezle-clad h(.)(.) ters girls and buckets of sudsy water.
As many times as hitting the flagstick from the fairway and gettig a negative result..how many times has it saved a ball from flying off the back of a green, resulting in a negative score? It may be that if the game is played long enough, these consequences may equal out.
One gripe that I have regarding pro golf, especially the U.S. Open, with it's three foot grass, is the best in the world get ....Spotters , I would say with some strong degree of confidence that we Joe hackers would be declaring lost ball with a degree of regularity, when compared with the best in the world.. & their spotters....good test..fair.
So very true. Agree with all you say. I can't say they same about the post above you. I've read some crap in my life but this one comes close to topping them all. Hunter Mahan should not have been penalized for hitting the ball closer to the pin or hole. " The flagstick giveth and the flagstick taketh away."
The flag is only an aiming point. And as others have said, it saves as many a shot as it takes away. Without the flag we don't see a lot of the chip ins that we have been witness to. While I will agree that Hunter got a really bad break as that ball would have probably settled close to the pin, golfers often "opt" to leave the pin in on certain shots around the green to "save" them or "assist" them with their shot.
In my opinion, the rule that needs to be modified is when a player drives the ball right down the middle of the fairway, and finds himself in a divot. This to me, would clearly constitute, "ground under repair", and the player should get a free drop. What would happen, for example, if someone took a divot out of the green, and one's ball landed in said divot. Would he/she have to putt out of it, or would they receive a drop.
Remove 'em entirley. Everyone knows the pin position. Make it harder I say. Matter of fact, I say install moving holes in the greens. And while were at it, lets add a coupla windmills, and clowns mouths.
get over it. how many of you nimrods ever hit the friggin pin anyway. yer lucky to find the green, let alone the pin.
Divots are tricky! On the face of it I agree. But I think some of the players who are experts at using the rules to their advantage would start taking the divot to a new level. " Is it a divot or an animal scraping?" Might end up with zooologists being called in to make a ruling?
Flagsticks are here to stay. With laser distance finders using them to locate distance it would be pretty hard to come up with a substitute. Hitting a flag is just a bad break, like hitting a sprinkler head and shooting off line.
I wish many more courses had the 150 poles or poles indicating the center of the fairway. I don't think I have ever seen one hit from the tee and you can move them if they are in the way in the fairway. When you are playing a new course that feature doglegs or hills those posts are a great thing.
The hole is the traget. A bit like it's the space between goal posts in football, soccer,hockey is the target. Then if there is one rule I would amend, it's the one where a ball has gone into the hole but somehow manages to bounce out. The current rule declares it as a non-holed stroke -- I would rather it was ball-in-hole. I'm not talking about severe lip-outs; the ball in each case had completely passed below the horizontal plane of the 'hole'.
2 immediate incidents come to mind. Charles Howell holing out for a would-be-eagle (and victory) and watching the ball bounce out and into a pond, resulting in a bogey (great recovery) and a 2 shot loss (eagle would have been 1 shot win). The second was from Qschool a couple of years ago, I think. Can't recall the player's name, but his putt fell in then bounced out. The extra stroke ultimately cost him his tour card.
For me it happens so seldom it's not worth bothering about. I realize it's a near impossibility, but in my opinion rate of incidence in this case should not play a factor. If the goal is to put the ball in the hole, then we're talking about material conditions beyond the goal, yes? Regarding the original topic, I understand the argument that the pin and flag are 'part' of the course, but how is the bottom of the cup 'in play' ?
You mentioned the other sports. In soccer, once that ball has crossed the goal line, within the bounds of the goal, then it is counted, even if it bounces out. (And I'm sure you and I have witnessed a ball caroming off the top bar, hitting the ground just behind the line with enough back spin to bounce back in front of the goal.)
Witnessing the occasion will always be an issue, regardless of the sport. What I described in soccer have been disallowed by referees who simply did not see them clearly. Home runs in baseball have occasionally and incorrectly be disallowed, particularly those that curve around or in front of the foul/fair pole, but by judgment, not by rule. With clear visual evidence (at time of judgment), a goal is a goal, and a homerun is a homerun. I would like to think the same of a golf ball that has crossed the goal line (if you will).
Some interesting & entertaining comments. As usual Vlad has suggested some rather intriquing offsets to current flagdom. I actually like the laser idea *beam me in Scotty!* Also, I agree there are probably on a ratio far more incidents of the flag helping the golfer than those where the golfer is penalized. In response to GB2 I've actually hit those yardage poles on my drives quite a number of times & it's why I hate the darn things. The subject of divots is one I'm sure most of you who gamble when playing have severely cussed whoever forgot to put sand after taking what looks like a backhoe chunk of grass out of a fairway. That is more than a rub of the green, it's a manmade dilemma when you get in one. At our club we now have finally agreed to allow a drop if your ball goes into an unrepaired/unsanded divot in the fairway. By the way I was thinking back and of the 6 holes in one I have had the fortune to make 2 would not have gone in if the flag had not been in the hole. Normally I want the pin out when I chip, however the pin can be helpful especially on fast greens when you have shortsided the pin location.
Lots of good stuff so thanks to those who have contributed to the discussion. Best to all & good golfing!
I am for rule modification proposals.....it's called the flagstick drop......
"When the flagstick is struck by ball in flight, the player is allowed a placement [not drop] at 6 feet from the hole, along the line drawn from ball position to cup." A joke? Naw, I am serious! Think about it.
When I first saw the topic of this thread I was intrigued. I assumed it was a question of whether to leave the flag in the hole during chips and sand shots. it turns out the entire thread is bogus! i think it's safe to say that Vlad's "improvements" were tongue in cheek Jimmy. If it proves otherwise, I'll eat my words.
The fact is this, the flagstick is part of the golf course, even when removed from the hole. Divots, poor lies, overgrown rough beyond the scope of what the tournament directors intend, poor hazard conditions etc. are part of the golf course. Every golfer out there plays under the same conditions. You need skill, course knowledge, a good caddie and a bit of luck to win. Hunter had three of four...not enough to win the US Open.
Fortunately for Glover, he managed to capitalize on his tee time luck and make some fantastic shots down the stretch to earn the win. Give him props.
Oh, and always pull the flag. If you're relying on the flagstick to stop your ball....you shouldn't be golfing. Keno's more your speed!
I say just leave it alone and accept what may or may not happen when a golf ball strikes a flagstick. I accept everything else, good or bad and inbetween when I play golf.
As for those yardage posts, rip 'em out, they gripe my gizard almost as much as slow play.
I don't care about the yardage markers, but I think the flagsticks should stay just the way they are. There needs to be a good deal of reverence for the constistency of the game. Comparisons should be able to be made between past and present players, and keeping regulations on equipment and conditions is the way to do so. I know that driving the ball far and being accurate are fun in golf, but I think consistency is better for the game.
A joke? Naw, I am serious! Think about it.