Okay...Darnell Dockett, as well as many other Cardinals players, has not done much in his career prior to the Cardinals amazing Superbowl run. But, Prisco still puts him at 3, before some guys that have been clogging up holes in the league for years!
Guys like Haloti Ngata and Casey Hampton have played on 2 of the best run-stopping defenses for the last 5 years...but Prisco puts Ngata at 7 and Hampton unlisted. That's quite discouraging. I especially feel for Hampton. He has been placed on the Pro Bowl roster 4 times and won the Superbowl twice. The Pro Bowl total is more than Haynesworth, Dockett, Wilfork, Harris, and Jay Ratliff. Jay Ratliff??? Without Ware and Ellis rushing from both sides, he probably wouldn't even be a one-time Pro Bowler. And Hampton is supposedly worse than these guys? All I know is that he is a beast, and he is one of the main reasons why Pittsburgh always has great linebackers. BlahOptic's list is pretty good on the other hand, everyone is pretty much in the right place, in my opinion.
You are entitled to your opinion....but the NFL network did a top 5 list last night and it looked alot closer to Prisco's than BlahOptic's. I think Prisco was more willing to put guys up there that make plays themselves rather than the DTs that create plays for others. I'm not saying one is a better way to judge than the other. It's actually what you prefer to see. Both lists are pretty good IMO based on what the writers are obviously looking at.
BTW, Jay Ratliff will be/is the premier NT pass rusher in the league. Lets not bring him down cause he doesn't stop the run as well as Hampton....does Hampton rush the passer as well and Ratliff? Not even close. And lets also remember Ratliff is on the nose taking up blocks which makes it easier for Ware and Ellis (now Spencer) to get to the QB as well....It's a pick your posion type of senario. Put an extra guy on 2 out of the 3 and then the 3rd guy will come in and make a play...and if that doesn't happen Ratliff clogs the middle and Bradie James comes in for a sack (led the league in sacks from the ILB position last year). But that has nothing to do with Ratliff's presence in the middle....riiiiiiggghhht!!
And your logic Hampton is why Pitt always has great linebackers has no effect on Ratliff coming into the starting lineup for the Cowboys and Ware throwing up 20 Sacks....again....riiiiggghhhhttt!!
What you need to understand is Ratliff is not your prototypical 3-4 Nose Tackle. The guy is not built like some of the aforementioned and he stills has 7.5 sacks!! That's unheard of from the NT position when you take on double teams. Ratliff by far and away deserves this list!!
Prisco's list to me is trash, if I was in the woods I might wipe my butt with it, but other than than NO VALUE.
The other list is better. I would suggest any list of this nature are subjective and apparently the teams overall value is effecting the individuals or else...
the fact that Dockett is sub 300 pounds and would be simply unable to play DT in some systems would seem to impact his overall rating right?
the fact than Shaun Rodgers was the sole DOMINANT force on the Browns and won two games almost single handedily from NT spot would matter more right?
the fact that Kris Jenkins has dominated in every style of defense the game of football has thrown at him surely would nto be discounted as much as it is right?
You're right, Ratliff is not the prototypical NT, most NTs' in a 3-4 defense eat up blockers and hold the point of attack for the LBers to make plays. In the cowboys defense the DE's hold more of that responsibility while the NT is a penetrator, and rairly occupies two blockers. While this does lend to Ratliff making more plays, espeically as a pass rusherm, it also opens up the ILB's to having to take on blockers. It works when you have big ILBs' with the size and strength to do that, such as James, but if the ILB doesn't have good size he'll get mauled by Guards (i.e. Zach Thomas). It works very well for the pass rush, as the o-line has to open up more to block the OLBs', but it does sometimes hurt DAL in terms of rush defense.
Ratliff plays more like a 3-technique DT than a true NT. It's not a bad thing as that's how the defense was designed and DAL has had a decent defense over the past few seasons.
At the top it should be Haynesworth, then Pat Williams, Kevin Williams is awesome but he is the 2nd best DT in Minnesota. Casey Hampton and Kris Jenkins should be higher. Wilfork and Ngata then Kevin Williams and the rest. I know last season was not a hallmark year but how has John Henderson dropped off the top 10 list?
I don't at all agree with BlaqOptic's statement that Pat Williams will be an eventual Hall of Famer. It won't happen. His game went to the next level when he started playing beside Kevin Williams, it wasn't the other way around as he suggests. He also made the statement that Pat Williams has played at a high level for 11 years. Not true. Williams didn't even start a game in the NFL until his 4th season and he has only been a full time starter for the last eight years. I'm not sure how that constitutes playing at a high level for 11 years.
Kevin Williams had already been selected All Pro (2004) and went to the Pro Bowl before Pat Williams was signed by the Vikes prior to the 2006 season. He reached double figures in sacks in his first two seasons in the NFL - 10.5 in 2003, 11.5 in 2004. Again, those acheivements were without having Pat Williams as the other DT.
I would certainly agree that both Williams benefit from playing beside each other, but don't forget that Pat Williams never went to a Pro Bowl prior to joining the Vikes.
I do believe that one of the Vikings Williams will eventually make the Hall.............but I think it will be Kevin Williams that will eventually be enshrined.
Good list from BlaqOptic, better than Prisco's I agree...I think Ngata is a little too high and I would probably find a place for Jamaal Williams who is a beast in the mold of Hampton and Pat Williams...I think the 3-4 noseguards are very underrated in this league. Interior lineman should not be judged by sacks but by the production of their LB's and the ability to collapse the pocket.
Dabears...good points. But let us remember that Pat Williams plays over the C and Kevin Williams plays over the G. That means Pat Williams takes on a C and G and often a FB as well. Stats do not tell the whole story and the Pro Bowl is all about sacks when it comes to defensive lineman. Ask Sam Adams and Ted Washington about that. No doubt Kevin Williams is a beast, but often in football the guy who 'made the play' is not the guy who made the sack or tackle.
Actually, read the entire post before the guys at CBSSprots cut it short...
I know I’m going to sound a little out of line here, but I honestly think that Pat Williams is an eventual Hall of Famer. While numerous Nose Tackles, both 3-4 and 4-3 come into the league and play at a high level for a few seasons, Williams has been doing it for 11 Seasons. Williams, unlike most Nose Tackles, however, manages to, not only blow up running plays, but to get to the ball carrier as well. This decade Williams has lead all Defensive Lineman in Stuffs a ridiculous five times! He’s finished with 7 or more Stuffs against the run in a season an outstanding eight times! However, the largest accolade to his career might be that, since joining the Vikings, he has turned the run Defense into one of the best in the history of the NFL, and that is no exaggeration… they have the numbers and records to back that up. Everyone likes to talk about Kevin Williams, but Pat’s ability to occupy two or three blockers on every snap that he takes helps make Kevin, and even Jared Allen look good in their one-on-one matchups.
I know I’m going to sound a little out of line here, but I honestly think that Pat Williams is an eventual Hall of Famer. While numerous Nose Tackles, both 3-4 and 4-3 come into the league and play at a high level for a few seasons, Williams has been doing it for 11 Seasons. Williams, unlike most Nose Tackles, however, manages to, not only blow up running plays, but to get to the ball carrier as well. This decade Williams has lead all Defensive Lineman in Stuffs a ridiculous five times! He’s finished with 7 or more Stuffs against the run in a season an outstanding eight times! However, the largest accolade to his career might be that, since joining the Vikings, he has turned the run Defense into one of the best in the history of the NFL, and that is no exaggeration… they have the numbers and records to back that up. Everyone likes to talk about Kevin Williams, but Pat’s ability to occupy two or three blockers on every snap that he takes helps make Kevin, and even Jared Allen look good in their one-on-one matchups.
OK, I read the whole thing, but it doesn't change my opinion. You don't need to lecture me on what Pat Williams brings to the table, I agree with what you are saying about his play. He is dominant against the run - no question about it.
Again, Kevin Williams was a Pro Bowler and an All Pro before Pat Williams got to the Vikings. Williams had double figures in sacks his first two seasons in the NFL.........again, no Pat Williams. Kevin Williams was an established star at DT before Pat Williams joined the team. That is a fact.
Ask yourself, which of the two players has increased their profile since the Williams' have been playing together on the Vikes? That would be Pat Williams. So who has benefitted more? It is without question the best tandem in the NFL, and the best D-line as well. But it is Kevin Williams that is the best player of that group.
Do not misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not arguing against Pat Williams as one of the top DTs in the league. He is great at what he does and he is the prototype for teams want in a NT. But a Hall of Fame player? That's a huge leap.
And to that I reply... Find me another DT with production like that over a long period of time. Now find me a DT like that that was the anchor in the run Defense that is considered the ebst all time. Kevin Williams was a Pro Bowler, but he was simply a good UT with not NT abilities before Pat arrived. He didn't clog run lanes, he shot the A and B gaps for Sacks.
I agree....The Cardinals great postseason, and solid defense during that post season, does not qualify Darnell Dockett as one of the 3 best DTs in the league. We have at least 4 DTs better than him on 3 teams in the AFC North (Haloti Ngata, Kelly Gregg, Casey Hampton, and Shaun Rogers) and I would even put Domata Peko close to/on his level too. The media is jaded with their SB run, at least most people here realize it.
And to that I reply... Find me another DT with production like that over a long period of time. Now find me a DT like that that was the anchor in the run Defense that is considered the ebst all time. Kevin Williams was a Pro Bowler, but he was simply a good UT with not NT abilities before Pat arrived. He didn't clog run lanes, he shot the A and B gaps for Sacks.
And to your reply, I reply................
So the only reason the Vikes have the great Run D they boast is because of Pat Williams??? If that's the case then it all Pat Williams fault the Vikings pass D has ranked in the bottom half of the league the last 4 years too, right?
But the fact is, there is some truth in that statement. While teams in the NFL have had very little success against the Vikes running the football - even to the extent they have stopped trying, they have had tremendous success throwing the football. One of the reasons for that is the fact that Pat Williams makes no impact as a pass rusher - only 5.5 sacks in the last 4 seasons. Why run into a wall when you can throw over it at will? And that is the biggest reason Pat Williams won't make the HOF. He is exceptional at stopping the run, but he is a one dimensional player. To get into the Hall of Fame I would expect a DT to possess a well rounded game and I think the voters will see it the same way.
And you asked for an example of DT that had the same kind of impact as Pat Williams? Sure thing. How about the player that Pat Williams replaced in Buffalo - Ted Washington. While Buffalo may not have had as dominant a run D as the Vikes, Washington was the key player in the run D for a team that was Top 10 in that category from 1997 to 2000. Then Washington went to the Chicago and revitalized the Bears defense. The Bears went from 19th in rushing yards against in 2000 to 2nd with the addition of Washington in 2001. In 2002 Washington was hurt and only played 2 games and the D suffered for it dropping to 26th.
Need more evidence? How about the fact that when Ted Washington went to the New England Patriots in 2003 their run D ended the season ranked 4th (in 2002 the Pats finished 31st). And that Pats defense finished the season with 3 shutouts in their last 7 games. It wasn't all because of Washington of course, but he was a key component.
And by the way, guess what happened to the Bills run D when Washington left and Pat Williams became a full time starter? It dropped from 6th in 2000 to 26th in 2001. Then it was 29th in 2002. It wasn't until 2003 that the Bills run D cracked the top 10 and one of the big reasons was the addition of DT Sam Adams. And it was Sam Adams that was recognized for his work with the Bills by getting a Pro Bowl berth in 2004 - not Pat Williams.
Something else to consider, he Vikings Run D ranked 19th in Pat Williams first season in Minnesota (2005). If he was the catalyst for improving that Run D, please explain those results because the reality is the team only improved two spots from the previous season (2004 - 21st, 2005 - 19th).
Now, who are some of the DTs of recent vintage who have a legitimate shot at the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
- Cortez Kennedy - 8 time Pro Bowler, 3 times 1st team All Pro, 2nd team All Pro once, Defensive Player of the Year (1992)
- John Randle - 7 Pro Bowls, 6 1st Team All Pro, most sacks ever for a DT (137.5)
- Warren Sapp (not eligible until 2013)
Any one of those 3 has a far better case to make for the Hall of Fame than Williams, and the fact is there is no guarantee that any of those 3 will get in. How can you justify Pat Williams over any one of those players?
And there are other DTs whose names come up year after year and are unlikely to make the hall:
- Ray Childress
- Steve McMichael
Even Ted Washington can make a better case for a HOF berth than Pat Williams BUT I do not believe he will get any serious consideration. He, like Pat Williams was too one-dimensional.
And you continue to repeat the fallacy that somehow Kevin Williams was just another DT until Pat Williams showed up. The more you repeat it the more you sacrifice your credibility as someone who is knowledgeable about NFL DTs. Kevin Williams was well on his way to being one of the elite D-lineman in the NFL prior to the arrival of Pat Williams.
If he continues at this level for two or three more seasons, it is Kevin Williams who will get the call to Canton.
prisco's list is based on big names . the guy has no clue about football. im sorry to say kellen winslow is not the 5th best tight end in the league. maybe right around 9 or 10. dallas clark , chris cooley , and heath miller are way better than him.
