TNM&GB Hockey Musings Part III

I clearly remember that game 6 back in Boston.  I don't think Tim Thomas factored into that one much at all.  What I saw was a Vancouver team get completely blown out of the arena before the 1st period was over.  A goalie did factor in that game, but it was the sieve on the other end of the ice.

Game 7?  50/50, imo.  Tim Thomas certainly kept the Canucks off the boards but much like game 6, momentum played a key factor, it just took a little longer this time.  Once the Bruins went up 3-0 in the 2nd period, you could just see Vancouver run out of gas.

You can't give credit of every game Boston had last year to Tim Thomas, but you can damn well give him credit for being the best player on that team, the most important player on that team, and the best goalie in the league.  He's an elite goalie right now.  All Time?  We'll see.  He has a lot of hardware to say that he is up there with some of the alltime greats.

blitz, that's what i was trying to say, but tark seems to think he wasn't and that he was part of the team that won the cup and not the main reason, which is what im getting too. and again, he was named the conn smythe winner, wasn't he ?

oh well, lets move on. can the Flyers get a freaking win tonight. 0-2-1 in their last 3 games. the game is at home so rake the leafs and toss them out! please.

Tim Thomas is a mirage. Those “Amazing” saves he makes are usually caused by the fact that he’s so out of position in the first place that he NEEDS to make an Amazing save. He is a product of the team and system in front of him. Just look at his numbers before Julien became coach … they are atrocious! That’s really all the evidence you need. You don’t just suddenly become a good goalie after the age of 30. He’s a great athlete, don’t get me wrong, he just doesn’t know how to play the position efficiently. He’s a lot like Jeter in that respect. He makes stuff look harder than it needs to be just for the sake of flair.

Are we all forgetting that this is the same Tim Thomas that wasn’t even starting at the beginning of last year btw?

You want a prime example of what I’m talking about? Check out the OT goal in game two last year. Burrows is coming down with Chara, the real best player on the team, right behind him and to the side. So, the only thing Burrows could do was either shoot or try to drive in an make a deke that would be limited to either his five hole or right side. So a normal goalie would just come out to the top of the crease and stand his ground and move back with the shooter and then hug the post as Burrows either went behind the net, or curled out to the left boards. What Thomas did was come out about 3-4 feet further than he should have … fell for a shot fake and almost crapped his pants … and then, instead of retreating to the net and hugging the post he continues to challenge Burrows and basically chase him around the post, leaving the other side of the net wide open where Burrows eventually tucked it in. And the whole time he’s doing this, he’s essentially picking Chara and preventing him from making a play.

Goalie is a defensive position. The concept should be to let the puck hit you and control where the rebound goes. Not attack the puck and kick out huge rebounds and hope your all world defense bails you out.

If you put Thomas on a team with an offensive minded coach and/or a cruddy team in general, he would be cut within a week.

You don’t just suddenly become a good goalie after the age of 30. He’s a great athlete, don’t get me wrong, he just doesn’t know how to play the position efficiently. He’s a lot like Jeter in that respect. He makes stuff look harder than it needs to be just for the sake of flair.

Really?  Tell that to Bernie Parent who didn't play like the HOF goalie he is remembered for until he was 28. 

Goalie is a defensive position. The concept should be to let the puck hit you and control where the rebound goes. Not attack the puck and kick out huge rebounds and hope your all world defense bails you out.

That's a very narrow-minded concept about goalie play.  And what you described really was a purist to the butterfly style, which is all about sitting back and timing the shot.  Hybrid goalies like Thomas do a variety of things to keep the opponents guessing, which includes poke checking and driving the puck to the corner.  If you don't think Thomas can keep a puck to himself when he wants to, then you haven't really watched him play. 

Different styles have different methods for each player, it's how well they utilize them and match them with their skills that will define them as a player overall based on results. 

You want a prime example of what I’m talking about? Check out the OT goal in game two last year. Burrows is coming down with Chara, the real best player on the team, right behind him and to the side. So, the only thing Burrows could do was either shoot or try to drive in an make a deke that would be limited to either his five hole or right side. So a normal goalie would just come out to the top of the crease and stand his ground and move back with the shooter and then hug the post as Burrows either went behind the net, or curled out to the left boards. What Thomas did was come out about 3-4 feet further than he should have … fell for a shot fake and almost crapped his pants … and then, instead of retreating to the net and hugging the post he continues to challenge Burrows and basically chase him around the post, leaving the other side of the net wide open where Burrows eventually tucked it in. And the whole time he’s doing this, he’s essentially picking Chara and preventing him from making a play.

Giving a one time example of what he did "wrong" does not make your assessment correct, especially considering for every 7 "wrong moves" he makes, he makes 93 others that are correct due to his style of play. 

blitz, that's what i was trying to say, but tark seems to think he wasn't and that he was part of the team that won the cup and not the main reason, which is what im getting too. and again, he was named the conn smythe winner, wasn't he ?

I just think that giving all this credit to the goaltender diminishes what the rest of the team does.  To say that Tim Thomas was the main reason why the Bruins won the Cup is completely ridiculous in my opinion.  He's one of the reasons and he's important, but if you constantly rely on your goalie to bail you out, you're not going anywhere.

I keep bringing up Ryan Miller from last season, and each time, that point goes ignored.  He was easily the MVP of the series against the Flyers, but the Sabres lost.  I think Ryan Miller is a better goalie than Tim Thomas (Thomas is obviously one of the top goalies in the league, in an elite category), but the Bruins as a team are miles and miles ahead of the Sabres.

Who's a better goalie: Jonas Hiller or Corey Crawford?  Must be Crawford, since he's on the better team, right?

Giving a one time example of what he did "wrong" does not make your assessment correct, especially considering for every 7 "wrong moves" he makes, he makes 93 others that are correct due to his style of play. 

80% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

after the olympics, i thought the invincibility to miller was over. the Flyers chased him in one of those games.

tark-i will leave the debate with this...marty brodeur ! were those cup winning teams in NJ the best ? No! It was him and that trap defense to win 1-0! Brodeur was the difference in many playoff games and series against the flyers. same for domenic hasek. that floundering oaf did everything right. when the flyers would score on hasek it was like "wow, they really scored on him!"

sometimes in these 2 hall of famers examples, a great goalie is sometimes all you need to bail you out as these 2 guys did it for years with subpar teams in front of them. i think hasek won the vezina on a non-playoff contending team. i know the goalie for montreal did...not roy or price, joselin thibuilt or something like that.

Really?  Tell that to Bernie Parent who didn't play like the HOF goalie he is remembered for until he was 28.

Ok … and I’ll also tell him that 28 is a higher number than 30 now … I didn’t get the memo that we changed that? I’ll also tell him that no one “remembers” his rookie year with the Flyers and his time with the Leafs and the WHL … who needs history right? Just because YOU only remember him after he got traded back to the Flyers doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a good goalie before that. Cuz, ya know … most teams tend to waste their first pick of their expansion drafts on bad goalies that don’t have talent or potential right?  

And I’m sorry … I should have been more specific .. you don’t just up and become a good goalie at 33. Which is the downside of your prime. Usually a goalies prime years are 27-33 give or take a year or two … not 33-37.

But lets look at the numbers shall we? Here are Thomas’ numbers pre Julien:

05-06: “Breaks” into the league at age 33 after spending his career in the minors and other various foreign leagues and posts a FAT 2.77 GAA and a .917 save percentage! Totally Vezina worthy!

06-07: Another great year with a 3.13 GAA and a .905 save%!

Then Along comes Julien and his GAA drops to 2.44 in 07-08, then 2.10 in 08-09, 2.56 in 09-10 and he lost his job. And then gained it back last season posting a 2.00. His worst year under Julien was still better than his best year without him. Granted it’s a small NHL sample size of Thomas before Julien … but I think the fact that he couldn’t even MAKE the NHL is proof enough.

Different styles have different methods for each player, it's how well they utilize them and match them with their skills that will define them as a player overall based on results.

There are certainly different styles … but that doesn’t mean that one of them isn’t worse than the other, or out dated. Remember pitchers wind ups in the 20? I wonder why they changed that? Seems to me like expending all that energy before ever actually throwing the ball is a great idea!

Giving a one time example of what he did "wrong" does not make your assessment correct, especially considering for every 7 "wrong moves" he makes, he makes 93 others that are correct due to his style of play.

Oh I’m sorry … I didn’t know I was supposed to post all the times I thought he was wrong … cuz who uses the word "example" to mean here is one example to show how a person reacts on a regular basis ... but how about this … the next time you see him give up a goal, that’s my latest example because they are almost all his fault. (with the exception of deflections).

I just think that giving all this credit to the goaltender diminishes what the rest of the team does.  To say that Tim Thomas was the main reason why the Bruins won the Cup is completely ridiculous in my opinion.

Exactomundo! Great athlete and gets the Job done … but he is NOT the reason they won the Cup. Rask would have done just as well I bet ya.

80% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

LOL! Right!

And anyway, you completely missed my point. My point is that he’s a MIRAGE! He makes things look more difficult because he makes them more difficult. The saves that he makes that Amaze you I see and then say, “Hey, instead of coming 50 feet out and cutting down the angle to the left and then when the shooter shoots to the right and you kick the rebound out to the slot and then have to make a sprawling save to keep the rebound from going in … wouldn’t it be easier to just sit at the top of the crease and take away the lateral angel and then you can either play the puck back to the left corner on the shot, or hold onto it, or if it’s too far to the right, kick it to the right. And then if you happen to make a mistake and kick it to the slot, all you have to do is shuffle 3 feet to your right, while still being able to stay square to the shot and make an easy save with your chest? You know, instead of flopping around like a fish and HOPING that you get a piece of the puck? I dunno … that’s just me I guess … why work harder when you can work smarter.

But really, at the end of the day … I can end it like this. I played hockey my whole life. I’ve played goalie and I’ve been to camps, have you? I bet not … so I probably have a better grasp of how to play the position then, now wouldn’t I? I’m going back to the real boards now … thanks for the reminder of why I left in the first place!

nyfan, are you really throwing out the 'i played goalie' card so that means that I can critique TT and his unreal season last year. Something tells me that the way you played goalie and the way Timmy does are different on many levels and its not just style. No goalie has had a season that succesful since Bernie Parent in the 70s. Ask Bobby Lou about Timmy's style. "when you come out of the crease like he does......yada yada yada.....pumping tires....yada yada yada Conn Smythe, Vezina, Cup, done.'

tark-i will leave the debate with this...marty brodeur ! were those cup winning teams in NJ the best ? No! It was him and that trap defense to win 1-0! Brodeur was the difference in many playoff games and series against the Flyers. 

Brodeur is great, I'd still take Hasek over him, but I highlighted the part of your sentence Cat that I think would be Tark's biggest argument. It was that trap defense that did more damage then Brodeur. Granted Brodeur made great saves at crucial times and held the fort for 1-0, 2-1 games. But it was that trap system in front of him that really did the damage...IMO. 

roth-when marty had to make the save - key or not, the mf****'er made it! so did roy and hasek. thomas make a ton last year. leighton barely made any. hextall in 87 made a ton. i can go on and on but it's time for chinese.

were those cup winning teams in NJ the best ? No! It was him and that trap defense to win 1-0!

I'd say those scrubs named Scott Niedermayer, Ken Stevens, Brian Rafalski, and Ken Daneyko had a little bit to do with it.

In 1995, the Devils outscored the Red Wings 16-7 in 4 games.  Conn Smythe: Claude Lemieux.

In 2000, the Devils outscored the Stars 15-9 in 6 games.  Conn Smythe: Scott Stevens.

In 2003, the Devils beat the Ducks in each of their 4 wins (in a 7 game series) by 3 goals.  Devils outscored them 19-12.  Conn Smythe: J.S. Giguere.  Brodeur had three shutouts that series, but Giguere was deemed more valuable to his team.

sometimes in these 2 hall of famers examples, a great goalie is sometimes all you need to bail you out as these 2 guys did it for years with subpar teams in front of them

Hasek won 1 Cup.  With the Red Wings.  Couldn't do it in 9 tries with the Sabres.  First year with the Wings, he gets a Cup.  The team in front of him had everything to do with that.

i think hasek won the vezina on a non-playoff contending team. i know the goalie for montreal did...not roy or price, joselin thibuilt or something like that.

You're proving my point.  The fact that you could win the Vezina but still not make the playoffs means that you need a good team in front of your goalie in order to have any sort of success.

Just because YOU only remember him after he got traded back to the Flyers doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a good goalie before that. Cuz, ya know … most teams tend to waste their first pick of their expansion drafts on bad goalies that don’t have talent or potential right? 

you obviously can't read.  Parent was a decent goalie in his earlier years, but it wasn't until his later years did he play like an elite goalie and it wasn't like he was showing potential to get better.  Do you even know why Parent was available in that draft?  The same reason why everybody else was, because they didn't feel these players would ever become one of the best in the league.  That drafted was specifically setup to ensure all the best players stated with the Original 6 teams, and the expansion teams got the scraps.  I could go on and on about this, but you just made some Wild assumptions and really didn't comprehend what I said.  so I'll just leave you to your ignorance here. 

And I’m sorry … I should have been more specific .. you don’t just up and become a good goalie at 33. Which is the downside of your prime. Usually a goalies prime years are 27-33 give or take a year or two … not 33-37.

players can have their primes whenever, and 27 is no magic number.  on top of that, it isn't a hard rule either that they hit their prime in their late 20's.  exceptions do happen.  if they didn't, no underdog would ever win a championship. 

05-06: “Breaks” into the league at age 33 after spending his career in the minors and other various foreign leagues and posts a FAT 2.77 GAA and a .917 save percentage! Totally Vezina worthy!

great sarcasm there bud, but those aren't exactly bad numbers either.  they're decent and the save percentage would tell you he's very capable of being a good goalie in the league.

im not going to go through the stats, we all know them.  the point is, he has had an up and down career, but you don't put up numbers like he has and be an average or decently good goalie, even with a great defense.  remember that guy he "Lost" his job to?  the guy played better than him, but got exposed in the playoffs. 

Oh I’m sorry … I didn’t know I was supposed to post all the times I thought he was wrong … cuz who uses the word "example" to mean here is one example to show how a person reacts on a regular basis ... but how about this … the next time you see him give up a goal, that’s my latest example because they are almost all his fault. (with the exception of deflections).

Yeh, I would say a majority of the goals given up by a goaltender are almost always their fault.   

Exactomundo! Great athlete and gets the Job done … but he is NOT the reason they won the Cup. Rask would have done just as well I bet ya.

Even with Thomas at his worst, he has never had a postseason like Rask's. 

And anyway, you completely missed my point. My point is that he’s a MIRAGE! He makes things look more difficult because he makes them more difficult. The saves that he makes that Amaze you I see and then say, “Hey, instead of coming 50 feet out and cutting down the angle to the left and then when the shooter shoots to the right and you kick the rebound out to the slot and then have to make a sprawling save to keep the rebound from going in … wouldn’t it be easier to just sit at the top of the crease and take away the lateral angel and then you can either play the puck back to the left corner on the shot, or hold onto it, or if it’s too far to the right, kick it to the right. And then if you happen to make a mistake and kick it to the slot, all you have to do is shuffle 3 feet to your right, while still being able to stay square to the shot and make an easy save with your chest? You know, instead of flopping around like a fish and HOPING that you get a piece of the puck? I dunno … that’s just me I guess … why work harder when you can work smarter.

You do understand that by coming out of the net, he puts a lot more pressure on the skater, making it HARDER for them?  By sitting back, you allow a skater to deke more, pick up speed, and essentially set up left or right, or go back and forth...by coming out, you make a skater commit to a direction, making it EASIER for the goalie to play that angle. 

Sitting back gives the skater more time to setup and get you out of position, by being aggressive you give the skater less time to setup and put them out of position.  Yeh, he flops like a fish because he has to scramble to get back, but guess what...he does it.  The goalies that do sit back usually do because they don't have the ability to work harder.

nyfan, are you really throwing out the 'i played goalie' card so that means that I can critique TT and his unreal season last year. Something tells me that the way you played goalie and the way Timmy does are different on many levels and its not just style. No goalie has had a season that succesful since Bernie Parent in the 70s. Ask Bobby Lou about Timmy's style. "when you come out of the crease like he does......yada yada yada.....pumping tires....yada yada yada Conn Smythe, Vezina, Cup, done.'

^this. 

something tells me this guy is also a butterfly goalie and doesn't know how to stay up on two skates.  i was never a regular goalie, but I rarely went down unless I absolutely had to or had the best timing that it called for a butterfly move. 

Hasek won 1 Cup.  With the Red Wings.  Couldn't do it in 9 tries with the Sabres.  First year with the Wings, he gets a Cup.  The team in front of him had everything to do with that.

While I agree that the Red Wings skaters had more to do with their victory when Hasek was there to win a Cup, I think if they actually had him during the 9 years he was with the Sabres, they would have won Cups before '97.  Just saying, the Sabres were a pretty mediocre team through and through in those years.  They had 1 good offensive year with Hasek in net, his first in Buffalo when LaFontaine had 148 point season (2nd behind Mario), and Mogilny led the league in goals with 76, after that their offense went downhill and couldn't keep up with the rest of the leagues better offenses.

Either way, Hasek won 6 Vezina's because he was the best goaltender in those years.  In the past 3, Thomas has won 2.  Why?  Because he was the best goaltender in those years. 

  Which for the sake of another poster on this thread...Hasek was still an elite goalie when he was 36 years old.  Why can't Thomas be the same at 37?

Thomas has the hardware to show why he has been one of the best players in hockey.  His past two postseasons he has put up ridiculous numbers, and I guarantee that if he was starting instead of Rask in 2010, we wouldn't be talking about the Flyers coming back from being down 3-0, twice.

another brutal weekend for the Flyers. 0 points and malkin is still scoring at will. the team looked slow vs the Rangers and the score could've been 9 or 10  - 2 as the rangers missed a ton of open nets.

i hope they do something or this team is going nowhere fast.

Your loss is my gain Cat. Pens caught up with the Flyers at least for now.

Question for anyone. I recently updated to the newer version of windows and now I cant follow games here on CBS on the glogs. It always closes the page and says that there is a problem with the website. Anybody else had this problem or know how to fix it? 

What browser are you using? Internet Explorer, FireFox, Chrome? Also, is it updated to the latest version? Is it asking you to install additional plug ins?

Internet Explorer

We've all experienced the same feeling..