Writing on the Wall for Manning and Vets

From the mouth of Irsay: 

“I really feel excited about the possibilities of our future.  I am interested in getting it right.  I’m interested in getting it right for a long-term period of time, so we can have a long-term period of greatness and success, and not just flash-up to 9-7 or 10-6 and fall back down.  My vision has always been to build it that way, and to make sure that we are building it for that sort of long-term success that you want to enjoy.”

If Irsay truly believes this, then the Colts will take Andrew Luck and let Manning, Wayne, Mathis, Saturday, Diem, Brackett, etc. all go. None of these guys will be around to help the long-term success of the team, and they can only hurt the Colts long-term when their contracts become dead weight and by taking away playing time from young players on the rise. It's a shame the Colts won't be able to recoup anything for all this lost talent through trades. They will eseentially be the Rams, only with Luck instead of Bradford but without the 2nd overall pick and with less talented young players from previous drafts.

If Irsay truly believes this, then the Colts will take Andrew Luck and let Manning, Wayne, Mathis, Saturday, Diem, Brackett, etc. all go. None of these guys will be around to help the long-term success of the team, and they can only hurt the Colts long-term when their contracts become dead weight and by taking away playing time from young players on the rise. It's a shame the Colts won't be able to recoup anything for all this lost talent through trades. They will eseentially be the Rams, only with Luck instead of Bradford but without the 2nd overall pick and with less talented young players from previous drafts.

It may not be as bad as you are saying.  Teams like the Steelers, and Pats have been able to redo their roster (Pats are still trying to fix their defense) and stay a top tier team.  The Colts might be able to do this, but they will have to look closely at whom they need to keep, and whom they need to let go for salary cap reasons.

You guys would know better than I would which of those stars are worth keeping and at what salary.  I have been hearing a lot of complaints about Wayne not being a #1, so maybe they grab a hot rookie and drop Wayne.  Collie and Garcon aren't miserable. 

I think they really need to concentrate on the trenches on both sides of the ball.  They really need a couple offensive linemen, and at least one big run stopping Dlineman.

Besides, I'm sure you could trade that first round pick for a slew of draft choices, and then convince Belichick that your 1st or 2nd next season is worth Mallet....  I think it is going to get interesting watching Indy over the coming months.  I didn't really like the team Polian put together, because I'm not a fan of finesse football (the Pats have been pissing me off quite a lot lately), but I was very surprised that Irsay let him go. 

i think people are overanylizing the polian move, i think its more of irsay having no confidence in chris polian, and bill polians arrogance that showed him the door...as far as FA's are concerned i dont think saturday comes back without manning, he will retire, brackett's been hurt for 2 years, and gonzo has played what 4 preseason downs in 3 years. diem has been on the decline for a couple years. i dont think addai will be back, by the way irsays comments about being 9-7, 10-6, and falling back down again to me is talking about all the nfl teams that handed the keys to rookie qb's, had success and now are a model of inconsistancy, Jets, Falcons, bucs, Rams, Texans, Chiefs, .....all these teams are a model of inconsistency. the Colts playoff run last year was made with non drafted fa on offense. javaris james was our rb Blair White in the slot a variety of TE's. not to mention the injuries on D. brackett, sessions, bullit, powers. and still as ive said a million times if cromartie who fielded the KO 8 yard deep in the end zone doesn't get a 50 yd return, they are in the divisional champ game..two weeks ago on national TV, irsay proclaimed if peyton is healthy he'll be back, and if there is a young qb in the draft when we pick we'll take-em. now the media has a list of teams peyton should play for. believe half of what you see and nothing of what you read...........by the way the colts will have a last place scedual next year, a healthy manning goes 14-2 with that. luck need a year or 2 too get used to seeing nfl speed and coverages on D. thats a reason i wouldve like to seen him play bama or lsu in the bowl game

You guys would know better than I would which of those stars are worth keeping and at what salary.  I have been hearing a lot of complaints about Wayne not being a #1, so maybe they grab a hot rookie and drop Wayne.  Collie and Garcon aren't miserable. 

None of the Colts big name veterans are worth the money as far as I am concerned. I would resign Garcon though assuming the price is right. There's no way I would resign Mathis or Wayne. I wouldn't bother resigning Saturday or Diem either. I would cut Brackett and possibly Clark.

I think they really need to concentrate on the trenches on both sides of the ball.  They really need a couple offensive linemen, and at least one big run stopping Dlineman.

I couldn't agree more. Now that the Polians are gone, maybe just maybe the Colts finally get this right.  

Besides, I'm sure you could trade that first round pick for a slew of draft choices, and then convince Belichick that your 1st or 2nd next season is worth Mallet....  I think it is going to get interesting watching Indy over the coming months.  I didn't really like the team Polian put together, because I'm not a fan of finesse football (the Pats have been pissing me off quite a lot lately), but I was very surprised that Irsay let him go.

This would be my preference, though I wouldn't offer the Colts first rounder next year for Mallet considering it could wind up being a high one if Manning walks or isn't healthy. I'm surprised Irsay let him go because I thought he had an absurd loyalty to him, but I'm glad that he did. This season demonstrated what a house of cards the Polians made the Colts into. I think it also demonstrated how disasterous handing the keys over to Chris Polian can be.

by the way irsays comments about being 9-7, 10-6, and falling back down again to me is talking about all the nfl teams that handed the keys to rookie qb's, had success and now are a model of inconsistancy, Jets, Falcons, bucs, Rams, Texans, Chiefs, .....all these teams are a model of inconsistency.

I don't see how talking about being 9-7, 10-6 for a couple of seasons before falling back down isn't talking about bringing Manning back to pull this awful team by its bootstraps into the playoffs for a couple of more seasons before he retires. Rebuilding with Andrew Luck now would be expected to produce another bad season or two but then many good seasons after that. Nobody would expect the Colts to be 9-7 or 10-6 with Andrew Luck starting next season. Irsay has also mentioned that he knows the Colts are in rebuilding mode.

 the Colts playoff run last year was made with non drafted fa on offense. javaris james was our rb Blair White in the slot a variety of TE's. not to mention the injuries on D. brackett, sessions, bullit, powers. and still as ive said a million times if cromartie who fielded the KO 8 yard deep in the end zone doesn't get a 50 yd return, they are in the divisional champ game..

That was with Manning. If Manning goes, the Colts will suck again and we can only hope Luck eventually develops into a Manning-like QB (even Manning wasn't Manning from the starting gate) and the next personnel guy does a better job of surrounding him with talent to support him rather than be propped up by him.

    two weeks ago on national TV, irsay proclaimed if peyton is healthy he'll be back, and if there is a young qb in the draft when we pick we'll take-em. now the media has a list of teams peyton should play for.

Irsay also indicated in recent weeks that Polian was safe. The Colts would have to gut their roster to keep both Manning and Luck because of cap issues. That would quite possibly lead to a couple of 9-7, 10-6 seasons (especially if the Colts don't draft well) before Manning retires and then who knows what when the Colts decide to throw an unproven Luck into the mix with a team that still needs to be rebuilt because all its cap space in the past couple of seasons was spent on the QB position. During contract talks with Manning, Irsay made a point of saying you can't field a winning team if you put too much money on the QB position, has that belief suddenly changed? Besides, there's still the question of whether or not Luck would even allow himself to go to a team that will sit him for more than a season and whether or not Manning will even be healthy enough by March to inspire enough confidence to pull the trigger on his massive roster bonus. Keep in mind the Colts will be stuck in salary cap hell once they pay that bonus even if they trade or release Manning.

those are all valid points, unless luck is another craig erickson, heath shular, jeff george, ryan leaf , j. russel, Brady Quinn, matt lienart, all considered to be nfl ready. with manning healthy you know what you have. then you make a smooth transition by grabbing 3 players in the top 60, luck being 1 of them. manning is about 18mill against the cap this year, with the new rookie cap its not costing you a small fortune for a guy you have no idea about. with often injured players gonzo, clark, brackett, addai and aging diem gone. that leaves plenty of cap space to use what already exsist and draft replacements.



the biggest thing everyone talks about is mannings salary cap hit. well if he's released do people think he's signing for 10 mill. no way anoyher team is gonna pay the same thing putting strain on thier cap, if he's traded it again a cap hit to the other team, only now they will be giving up what 2 #1's or skilled players which makes manning again the whole team. so unless he retires which i dont think he's ready to, especially if he's healthy. it makes sense to keep him and draft luck. hey if luck says im not playin behind him draft him and trade his rights to cleveland.


we are 2 sides if the arguement here which i like this. the 1 thing i do know for sure is that irsay will be a fool or a genius. he will be either 2nd guessed till he dies or provide the model of consistency that he is searching for. which is to have his cake and eat it too. that only happens once in a lifetime. lets hope it has a horseshoe on its helmet when it does......



hey pp, are you having a problem gettin on the message board. i can only get there thru my profile?        

I am having trouble getting on the message board, it seems that they deleted the link, but the board still exists. Kind of a pain in the butt, so I hope they fix this soon. I was kind of wondering if it was really Chris Polian that Irsay wanted to fire, and Bill didn't want to stay. It seems that the circumstances wouldn't really support that theory as truth, but it was just a thought. Kind of like when a head coach won't fire his assistants, and then it costs him his job. I also think it's kind of funny that the other Polian kid hasn't gotten the axe.

Wouldn't you think that Irsay would have someone in mind for the GM position before he canned the Polians? There's really not that much time between now and the draft for a new GM to get up to speed regarding the roster, but I suppose that doesn't matter so much when the transformation begins (which is what I anticipate, a lot of changes). The Manning thing is the key to the speed of this transformation. I was reading the amount tha the Colts could save by letting some vets walk. As it turns out, the savings are not that much. Anyway, much less than I would have thought. If Manning should restructure his contract (which he should do considering his situation) then it would free up a lot more money to keep some necessary pieces (like Mathis). I agree with Bleeder that Manning isn't ready to hang it up, and sentimentally I'm not ready for him not to be a Colt. There are other members of the team that I wouldn't mind seeing in other teams' uniforms next year though.

Who do you guys think is going to be the next GM?

outside the lines just had kravitz on thier panel he and another writer both are reporting that irsay had no confidence in chris and didnt want him running the franchise. i think bill the arrogant sob probably had an intense shouting match with irsay and he just fired both. i dont think he was expecting to do it and it just happened.


i have no idea about a gm, most big time coaches want both titles. i dont like that i think you need other input and being coach and gm there's no other opinion. that matters that is


i still think its bizzare that we hired tressle for replays, i still think he was put there to be coach in waiting. 

martz resigning is odd i mean i know angelos was fired, but he's probably making irsay and manning dinner.   martz that is.



fyi ..........on the dan patrick show today tony dungy was on, i didnt see it. i only saw the quote:........if peyton is healthy he'll be a colt, and yes they will draft andrew luck. it will be just like favre and rodgers in GB.      



      

manning is about 18mill against the cap this year, with the new rookie cap its not costing you a small fortune for a guy you have no idea about. with often injured players gonzo, clark, brackett, addai and aging diem gone. that leaves plenty of cap space to use what already exsist and draft replacements.

The Colts have plenty of holes on their roster even before they let all their free agents walk and release expensive veterans under contract like Bracket and Clark. You can only fill so much through one draft, especially if you don't trade the first overall pick for more picks. Even with the rookie salary cap, the Colts would be spending $20-25 million on the QB position, which is what Irsay already said a team cannot spend on quarterbacks and expect to be competitive. This team's problem in the Manning era has been being too top heavy without enough depth. Gutting the roster to hold onto both QBs will only exasperate the issue, especially considering that only one can play at a time. I don't see how Irsay could do this if he has any concern for longterm success.

the biggest thing everyone talks about is mannings salary cap hit. well if he's released do people think he's signing for 10 mill. no way anoyher team is gonna pay the same thing putting strain on thier cap, if he's traded it again a cap hit to the other team, only now they will be giving up what 2 #1's or skilled players which makes manning again the whole team.

The Colts cannot trade Manning. There's no way. They would absorb the cap hit of his roster bonus, not Manning's new team. They can't release him after March either without suffering a ridiculous cap hit even worse than just holding onto him. If they keep him past March, they have to keep him for at least a couple of years. The only hope for Manning staying is either he restructuers his contract or Irsay is willing to trade the first pick and go all in with Manning now. I don't see how Irsay possibly trades away Luck and goes all in now given what he's said about long-term success, so that leaves only Manning restructuring his contract. I don't see why he would do that, since he's better off having the Colts not exercise his contract option in March and becoming a free agent. Then he can sign anywhere he wants for whatever price, and he can choose the situation that will give him the best shot at a championship (like say the Jets). If Manning restructures with the Colts and thus allows them the option to release him in another year or two without the huge cap penalty, how does that serve his interests in any way? When Manning said everything will shake out and he can play with anyone, I can pretty much guarantee you he wasn't thinking about restructuring his contract so he can mentor Luck for a year or two before being shown the door, he was thinking about moving on to somewhere else and winning another championship while the Colts rebuild.

hey pp, are you having a problem gettin on the message board. i can only get there thru my profile?  

Yeah, the link is gone from the Colts team page. I just google "cbssports colts messageboard" to get to here now.  
 

I'm guessing the next GM will be someone from the front office of the Packers or Ravens. Those are the names being thrown around and that's what makes the most sense to me. Based on Irsay firing Polian but waiting on firing Caldwell, I think he is looking for a personnel man he can trust like he trusted Polian who will help him in the coaching search and remain in place over the tenures of multiple head coaches like Polian did.

yes..a new special teams coach on the horizon....1 more to go

PP, i must admit ive never heard irsay say tha they couldnt be competitive having both QB's on the roster, i did see him say before the Texans game that if he was healthy he'd have no problem paying him and drafting a qb w/ the #1 pick. when did he say that, i figure i would have seen it on every network or paper. if thats the case then i would have to assume either manning wont be back or the pick is being traded

He didn't say they couldn't be competitive having both QBs but he did say back during Manning's contract negotiations that they couldn't be competitive spending over $20 million for a QB because that wouldn't leave enough cap space for the rest of the team. Since keeping both QBs without a restructuring of Manning's contract would mean spending over $20 million for Manning and Luck, it can be inferred by Irsay's logic that the Colts cannot be competitive holding onto both without a restructuring of Manning's contract. Even when Irsay voiced optimism about keeping Manning and an unspecified top QB draft prospect (Luck), he said he was optimistic that Manning will restructure his contract. I think that optimism is naive personally. Since I don't see Irsay passing on Luck, I don't think there's any way Manning stays unless he restructures, and I honestly don't think he will.

What would you want as an owner of a team that has, arguably, the best QB of our time and one of the best of all time at that position AND the chance to get a talented QB right out of college?

Would you want both of them? Sure.

Would you let the known quantity go to make way for the future? Not unless you had to do it.

Would you pass up on the rookie to keep the veteran? Not unless you had to do it.

Would you look, knowingly, at about two seasons of being good but not having the talent to be great in order to have your star mentor your rookie? You would if you knew that your star had 2-3 years maximum left in him. You would if you knew that your rookie would be leaps and bounds above the curve when you could finally get him talent.

Can the Colt's keep both? Sure. Let Wayne, Mathis and a lot of the veterans go. Get rookies and take that 2-3 year pause while your QB situation works itself out.

Is this the best for the Colt's? YES! It is.

Dan Marino didn't step in and be great because he was Dan Marino. He was mentored by Don Strock.

Aaron Rodgers didn't step in and be great because he was Aaron Rodgers. He had to take a few years of hard knocks AFTER Favre left because Favre flat said it wasn't his job to mentor the kid.

If you want Luck to be ready to take over from Day 1, he has GOT to be mentored. Otherwise, you get 3-6 years of hard knocks.

If we already know that the Colts won't be in Super Bowl contention until the Luck era is underway, why would the Colts want to keep Manning around now? They would be far better off getting a fresh start with Luck now and building around him now so that pieces will already be in place to support him when he starts to hit his prime. Not to mention a bad season next year with Luck getting the same rookie hard knocks that Manning got (and said were instrumental in his learning process) would put the Colts in a better position to draft support for Luck (remember that's how the Colts got Edgerrin James).

Aaron Rodgers is hardly an example in favor of mentoring since, as you stated, Favre refused to mentor him. Rodgers therew for 28 touchdowns and over 4,000 yards in his first season as a starter, I'd hardly call that taking a few years of hard knocks after Favre left.

Dan Marino isn't really a great example either considering he started 11 games as a rookie and had one of the greatest rookie QB seasons of all-time (and hands down the greatest as of the time).

Then there's the most obvious counter example of Manning, who had absolutely nobody mentoring him. He might have had some struggles as a rookie, but he was playing well already in his second season, and he says playing as a rookie was very important for him.

Then there's all the success by rookie QBs this season and success by other rookie QBs in recent years. Cam Newton and Andy Dalton didn't have anyone mentoring them. Neither did Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, or Ben Roethlisberger.

The only recent example of mentorship producing results you can even throw out there is Drew Brees mentoring Philip Rivers. Even that example is questionable considering Drew Brees didn't become Drew Brees until after he left San Diego for New Orleans and Sean Payton's wonderful offensive schemes. The games of San Diego Drew Brees and Philip Rivers couldn't have been more different really.   


  

favre didnt mentor rodgers, but if you check some interviews you'll find out that the Packers completely changed everything about his motion and footwork.

ill give you big ben although he really did nothing the 1st time around other than grab nick harpers shoelace..he' had a much more complete team around him from day 1. thats a tribute to pitts front office. they do it the right way. ryan still hasnt won a playoff game, and wont this year. the Ravens dont even believe they can win with flacco, and we'll find out if dalton can pull his team from the fire this wknd. 


favre may not have mentored him. but you cant say that watching the system work,and  getting reps  working the offense didnt help both young and rodgers. remember also favre was never in camp on time and always missed practice time due to bumps and bruises  

"Dan Marino isn't really a great example either considering he started 11 games as a rookie and had one of the greatest rookie QB seasons of all-time (and hands down the greatest as of the time)."

I watched the Dolphins those years. After every offensive series, Marino and Strock were on the sidelines in their own little huddle talking about the field, defenses, etc. Yes, he was being mentored every step of the way, not just in training camp.

Now, would Peyton take a backseat to Luck in later years and do what Strock did with Marino? I highly doubt it. But, you cannot deny that Don Strock was instrumental in Marino blossoming that fast.

favre didnt mentor rodgers, but if you check some interviews you'll find out that the Packers completely changed everything about his motion and footwork.

favre may not have mentored him. but you cant say that watching the system work,and  getting reps  working the offense didnt help both young and rodgers. remember also favre was never in camp on time and always missed practice time due to bumps and bruises       

These are arguments for the benefits of experience on the sidelines (which I completely agree with), not mentoring from a starting HOF quarterback. It would make more sense to argue based on this benefit that the Colts should release Manning and sit Luck behind Orlovsky for a year or two until he's completely ready than to argue that the Colts need to hold onto Manning to be Luck's teacher.

ill give you big ben although he really did nothing the 1st time around other than grab nick harpers shoelace..he' had a much more complete team around him from day 1. thats a tribute to pitts front office. they do it the right way. 

Which is why the Colts should focus on building a more complete team around their QB instead of repeating the same mistake with Luck they made with Manning all these years.

ryan still hasnt won a playoff game, and wont this year. the Ravens dont even believe they can win with flacco, and we'll find out if dalton can pull his team from the fire this wknd. 

Ryan may not have won a playoff game, but he unquestionably has played well in this league from the get-go. Unless you are arguing that having started as a rookie is affecting his ability to win playoff games at this point in his career, it's a moot point. Flacco was winning playoff games from the very beginning, so...? What type of celing these guys have in their careers has nothing to do with whether or not mentoring from a HOF QB is a requirement for developing toward that celiing quickly. Nobody expected any of them to be Peyton Manning going into the draft, Luck is in an entirely different class than them as a draft prospect. Did those guys have success early on?  Yes.  Did Peyton Manning in year 2?  Yes.  There's not evidence to suggest Luck can't too without Manning. There's really no evidence to suggest having Manning around will even help him, and given Manning's knack for taking over practices both in terms of snaps and coaching, I'd say there's reasons to believe having Manning around could actually hurt his development.
 

  

I watched the Dolphins those years. After every offensive series, Marino and Strock were on the sidelines in their own little huddle talking about the field, defenses, etc. Yes, he was being mentored every step of the way, not just in training camp.

Now, would Peyton take a backseat to Luck in later years and do what Strock did with Marino? I highly doubt it. But, you cannot deny that Don Strock was instrumental in Marino blossoming that fast.

We've all seen Manning spend a great deal of time with Jim Sorgi on the sidelines between drives. Should we also conclude that Jim Sorgi has been instrumental to Manning's development throughout his career? You know Manning's numbers did suffer quite a bit in 2010 as soon as Jim Sorgi left town...

Drew Brees had more touchdowns and yards this season than Don Strock had in his entire career. The guy has never attempted more than 135 passes in a season. How is that an argument for keeping Manning rather than having Orlovosky around to talk with Luck on the sideline after Luck takes the starting QB position away from him within a few games?

Keeping Manning and Luck is salary cap suicide. Neither QB's precense will benefit the other or the Colts team short or long term prospects. The idea that Luck can't be Luck without Manning around to tell him how is preposterous. The idea that Manning would want to give anything less than 100% to winning right now is pretty far fetched in my opinion as well.  

Trading away a QB who has done so much for your team is a hard thing to do. The Eagles did it with McNabb but, McNabb is no Peyton Manning. If peyton can play next year IMO its just silly to trade him away. Nobody knows what kind of (pro) QB Luck will be. You already know that peyton is one of the best to EVER play the game. The only smart move is keeping a healthy Manning and drafting his eventual successor in Andrew Luck. I don't care if they co-exist or not. Rodgers and Favre didn't and that worked out pretty well for Green Bay. As for other veterans that might be cut. I say keep Wayne and Clark if you keep Peyton because they are feed off eachother and make eachother great. Mathis is gone but he can be replaced....Imagine how the Cowboys fans felt watching Emmitt Smith break the rushing record as a Cardinal? !..Do you really want to see Peyton Manning win a another ring as a Jet ?