3-4 Defense

I am not sure that a lot of the posters on this forum understand that we run a 3-4 defense or, at least, what a 3-4 defense requires.  People want us to sign Osi Umenyiora or a Jared Allen type to shore up our D-line.  A 3-4 D-line doesn't employ the lighter quick DE like Allen or Umenyiora but instead has the stouter block-eating 300 plus pound DT or NT.  We would be looking for a Wilfork, Ngata, Raji, Pickett style of lineman.

That being said, since the Packers made the switch to the 3-4, Ted Thompson has done a piss-poor job of manning the scheme.  First, he has failed to get big, strong athletic D-lineman.  So we struggle with Howard Green and then a raft of 6th and 7th round converted college lineman.  It is little surprise that we tend to play with 2 down lineman for most of the games.  Second, the 3-4 relies on big, quick linebackers to pressure the quarterback and handle the underneath game.  Other than Clay Matthews and maybe Desmond Bishop we haven't equipped ourselves with the second requirement for this defense.  We need a James Harrison, Terrel Suggs quality of player to make this defense sing.

It preturbs me to think that we made this switch 3 years ago and have done very little other than Clay Matthews and B.J. Raji to man the scheme.  Now people are talking about getting rid of Capers for an under performing defense.  Others are talking about abandoning the 3-4 and going back in time.  I say - let's get some appropriate players for the 3-4 and get out of no-mans-land.  What say you...

i couldn't agree more. The loss of Cullen Jenkins really hurt and with Nick Collins who is arguably one of the best safties in the game when healthy out all year our pass defense really suffered.

I would be shocked if we didn't draft an OLB or DE with the 1st round pick.

Here is a list of what I think our needs will be at the onset of the offseason

1. OLB-we need a guy to go opposite of Clay, Courtney Upshaw OLB from Alabama would be a dream come true in my opinion.
2. DE-with Picket getting older and I think being a free agent this position def needs to be addressed, is anybody a fan of C.J. Wilson or Mike Neal? I say they are average at best.
3.Safety-not a starting safety just a backup safety because i can't stand watching Charlie Peprah play anymore, hopefully Nick Collins is able to return to football.
4. Backup QB-Flynn is more than likely gone, and Graham Harrell will probably take over backup duties, but need to add another qb just to make it 3 on the roster.
5.CB-Tramon Williams seemed to take a step back this year, Charles Woodson isn't getting any younger, was Sam Shields a one hit  wonder? Jarret Bush is a great special teams guy but everytime i see him on the field on defense i get sick.

Packman you explain this really well.It's not a matter of just selecting names.The players we select must either fit in,be able to learn,or be able to expand upon our base defense.There are a few such players in the draft:Brandon Lindsey,Adrian Robinson,Carmen Messina,Jared Crick and Billy Winn come to mind.Not all of these guys will project to the same position they played in college but all could fit a 3-4 scheme,especially one that was having plays called to allow for more DLs being more active in the pass rush.Collapsing the pocket and allowing our LBs to make the play doesn't seem to be as effective as it might.If we could find another true NT I might give some though of moving Raji to end at least to see how that works.We just need some LBs with the same kind of motor and intensity as Matthews.They don't need to be the whole package.They just need to be good enough to draw some of the double teams away from our best rusher.

Not exactly, you can afford to have a smaller "Rush defensive end," Bruce Smith played most of his career as a 34 DE and he was only 262.

Well I'm sure the new defensive cordinator will go back to the 4-3 defense,because the current scheme sucks,the only threat on the defensive line is Matthews,and he can't do anything when he's getting double and triple teamed on every snap.

On one of the talk "blabber" radio shows yesterday I thought that I had heard one of the talking heads saying something about Capers' defenses over the years. Historically he starts out with a bad team (that's why he was hired), they struggle the first year getting the system down, then thrive in it the 2nd year when players buy into the schemes. In successive years after the 2nd year, Capers' defenses drop dramatically and then he's gone.

Now, I cannot verify this and wouldn't know where or how to look all that up on the net. Can someone verify - or debunk - that theory?

Clarification ... on other posts I said I'd like a "Jared Allen/Peppers" type FA to be on our D-Line. I wasn't talking about their positions or those specific players per se. What I meant was a playmaker FA that comes in, makes a huge impact to our team yet doesn't break the bank or give an advantage to the team we traded with. By that, I mean ... I don't think Minny was hurt much by what they gave up for Allen and certainly KC didn't get stinky rich with the deal either. For the Viks, the Risk/Reward of that FA signing was mostly reward. Agree/disagree???

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All that being said ... I wouldn't be sad if Capers left for Oakland, I'm pretty much done with his schemes and two man rushes and all that. Who's next? I don't have a clue, but get a 3-4 defense guy that can teach and knows pressures and can step right in. But most of all - no matter who the DC is - GET HIM SOME PLAYERS. 

Are their coaches on the Texans or Pittsburgh or Baltimore staffs that could come in? What about Kevin Greene? Is he too raw? I do love his fire though.

If Capers leaves, I won't cry. If he stays with the Pack then get him some dammed players to bull rush the passer. 

But most of all - no matter who the DC is - GET HIM SOME PLAYERS.

You are hitting the bottomline in this argument with the "get him some players".  I go back to my original comment and reiterate my point that TT has not equipped this defense with personnel to make it work.  Aside from the injuries, we added Clay Matthews and Raji and lost Cullen Jenkins,  Barnett and Chillar.  This scheme or any scheme is not going to work with Walden, Zombo, So'Oto, Jones and the like unable to get to the passer or cover underneath.  This defense isn't going to work with A.J. Hawk trailing a tight-end or trying to catch a running back from behind.

I tip my hat to TT for finding decent talent in the later rounds but your defense needs enough talent to execute at higher levels.  I don't know where Peprah, Bush or Shields came from but these are the guys that need to make plays against Calvin Johnson, Hicks and the like.  Sorry, but relying on Charles Woodson and Clay Matthews to make the plays is not a realistic or sustainable formula.

So we get rid of our DC, and like other teams start over with coaches and schemes.  Where does that get us other than on the treadmill of turnover.  We have a pretty good staff - get them the talent!

Now, I cannot verify this and wouldn't know where or how to look all that up on the net. Can someone verify - or debunk - that theory?

Not really, he was successful in Pitt and parlayed that into a HC position. Then he was successful in Jax until he was hired by Texas. The only place that that really happened was Miami, and I think that was more a personnel issue. Personally I think his defensive scheme is overrated, and part of the problem is that teams tend to neglect his side of the football after the initial success. I think the fire zone scheme just doesn't work as well these days, offenses are just better at recognizing the fire blitzes. 


Some problems...

The primary problem, our LBs don't produce well enough. Matthews and Bishop fit the mold of Fire Zone LBs but Hawk and the others do not. Hawk just doesn't come fast or aggressively enough and naturally defenses always know that Hawk is the decoy and Bishop the primary blitzer. Then you have a bunch of warm bodies playing opposite of Matthews. IMHO we need more backers who fit the scheme and I wouldn't mind seeing them try Brad Jones as a Buck LB where I think his speed size and aggression might open things up. Quick Note: Hawk isn't a bust, I actually think he would have been a star playing around 235 pounds in a Tampa 2 style defense. But playing as a 250 pound ILB just doesn't fit his natural game.


Secondary concern is Clay Matthews, he came in lighter faster, more agile to become a better Fire Zone backer. Personally I think he lost almost 10 pounds, which is huge for a player like Matthews because it's all muscle. Yes he became much better in coverage and better pursuing the run from the back side but he lost his bull rush and hsi explosive spin move with it.   

        

  

"So we get rid of our DC, and like other teams start over with coaches and schemes."

I don't think the Packers will "get rid of" Capers ... there has been talk that he'd move on to Oakland with McKenzie ...

There is no other statement to be made about Capers and/or the 2011 defense. Get some REAL playmakers on that side of the ball. If anything in his 7 years here, Thompson has been snow-blind when it comes to finding decent D-lineman. Outside Raji and Matthews, he really hasn't found another stud. In all areas of talent evaluation, he lacks finding/supplying good d-lineman the most.

We need Matthews to get thicker and turn back into a DeMarcus Ware type rusher for us.

Packers OLB Clay Matthews' combined knockdowns and hits total of 38.5, which includes sacks, was fourth in the NFL this season.

The 2010 All Pro was widely perceived as having a down year after seeing his sacks total plummet from 14 to six, but the overall numbers show he remained one of the league's most effective pass rushers.

I would have to take exception to the idea that Matthews was having a down year.He brings it all on every play he has ever lined up on and when you do that,good things follow.If he gets sacks,that shows up in the stats,as does tackles for loss.But when he gets double or triple teamed,the measurable stats don't show up,but that is still very disruptive to an offensive game plan.Thats all good but we should see the double teams on Matthews translating to big plays by other people and that doesn't seem to be happening.A couple of more players with the same kind of passion and motor as Matthews will give the defense what it needs the most:restore Matthews ability to do what he does best-get in the backfield.

Seriously, how can everyone just say "This is on the offense." Capers defense was exposed all year long, he doesn't have the excuse of injuries this year except for Nick Collins. My hope is that Capers gets interviewed for the Oakland Raiders HC job and takes it. This defense is better fit right now to move back to a 4-3 defense. We would still need to find some good pass rushing 4-3 defensive ends but all the other parts are there. Raji and Pickett would be a huge wall at the defensive tackle position. A.J. Hawk and Clay Matthews can be the OLB's, while Desmond Bishop would be the MLB. Of course our secondary would be Woodson, Williams, Burnett, and hopefully Collins. Clay Matthews can be used the way that the Denver Broncos used Von Miller. We can still have Matthews being a premier pass-rusher as a 4-3 OLB. Their is also a couple of guys at the 4-3 defensive end spots we could look at getting. Osi Umenyiora looked pretty good last night, and he wants out of N.Y


If we do end up sticking in the 3-4 defense, why not go out and get Free Agents like Igor Olshansky, or OLB Matt Roth who have experience in the 3-4 defense? Also, as far as the safety position goes...if Nick Collins has to call it a career, why not finally make Charles Woodson the permanent SS and keep Morgan Burnett at FS? If that doesn't suit the Packers defense, then I say we give FS M.D. Jennings a real shot at being the new starter. M.D. Jennings looked good in pre-season and he was good enough to be a back-up on this team, why not give him a shot at the starting spot? He can't be any worse than Charlie Peprah.

Seriously, how can everyone just say "This is on the offense." Capers defense was exposed all year long, he doesn't have the excuse of injuries this year except for Nick Collins. My hope is that Capers gets interviewed for the Oakland Raiders HC job and takes it. This defense is better fit right now to move back to a 4-3 defense. We would still need to find some good pass rushing 4-3 defensive ends but all the other parts are there. Raji and Pickett would be a huge wall at the defensive tackle position. A.J. Hawk and Clay Matthews can be the OLB's, while Desmond Bishop would be the MLB. Of course our secondary would be Woodson, Williams, Burnett, and hopefully Collins. Clay Matthews can be used the way that the Denver Broncos used Von Miller. We can still have Matthews being a premier pass-rusher as a 4-3 OLB. Their is also a couple of guys at the 4-3 defensive end spots we could look at getting. Osi Umenyiora looked pretty good last night, and he wants out of N.Y


If we do end up sticking in the 3-4 defense, why not go out and get Free Agents like Igor Olshansky, or OLB Matt Roth who have experience in the 3-4 defense? Also, as far as the safety position goes...if Nick Collins has to call it a career, why not finally make Charles Woodson the permanent SS and keep Morgan Burnett at FS? If that doesn't suit the Packers defense, then I say we give FS M.D. Jennings a real shot at being the new starter. M.D. Jennings looked good in pre-season and he was good enough to be a back-up on this team, why not give him a shot at the starting spot? He can't be any worse than Charlie Peprah.

   I don't think Matthews' size was an issue.  With ten extra pounds of muscle he still wasn't going to break through 2-3 blockers every play and get to the QB.  As I've said before, our scheme was too soft and predictable.  Move Clay around, don't have him rushing off the same edge every time.  If you're going to do that, you might as well play him as a DE in a 4-3.

   When you look at perennially consistent pressure defenses like the Steelers, you notice something.  The pressure comes from more than 1 different guy, from more than 1 different angle, all the time!  Lining Clay up on the left side and rushing him and 2 D-linemen is NEVER GOING TO WORK!!

   In today's offensive-minded NFL, a defense isn't like an offense where you can plug any old back-up into the lineup and hope for the best that the system will make him successful.  A league that used to be about running the ball and stopping the run is now 100% about passing the ball down the field and rushing the opponent's passer.  It doesn't matter how good your secondary is if the opposing QB has 10 seconds to throw the ball - someone will get open.  Our DBs create turnovers when our pass rush creates pressure, it's a simple as that.  When there's no pressure, our secondary gets exposed for the mediocer-in-coverage, above-average-in-ballhawking unit that it is.

   Every Packers fan and their mother knows it.  We need another D-lineman and OLB, whether it be through the draft, trade, or free agency.  Until we get the necessary pieces in the necessary positions, our team will be just like it was this year.  Capable of winning every game, but extremely vulnerable if our offense doesn't score over 30 points. 

I dont get all of the hawk hate? The guy would be a starting linebacker on any team in the league especially at his salary. Get off his case, he's surrounded by back ups with the exception of Matthews who had a bad year with just six sacks and thirty some tackles. That sucks, throw some heat on him to if you wanna be fair.

I don't ever remember seeing a MLB miss so many tackles on a consistent basis as Hawk did this year. He was unbelievably bad. To boot, he looks so stiff now that can't cover anybody and you would never want to match him on a back out of the backfield because he can't make plays in the open field.

Why should anyone be giving Hawk love, especially at his salary?

If my numbers are right, Hawk restructured to make his 2011 salary $1.15MM. But next year, and through 2014, he's scheduled to pull in $6.6MM per season against our cap with bonuses. DJ Smith outplayed Hawk in his limited opportunities and considering MM said today tackling was in his mind the biggest problem with the defense, I would be shocked if Hawk is back honestly.

 Every Packers fan and their mother knows it.  We need another D-lineman and OLB, whether it be through the draft, trade, or free agency.  Until we get the necessary pieces in the necessary positions, our team will be just like it was this year.  Capable of winning every game, but extremely vulnerable if our offense doesn't score over 30 points.

My mother said this to me the other day.  She said that another D-lineman and get to the quarterback OLB need to come out of this draft plus some beef to work into the line over the next two years.  You'd like my mother.

Good post. 

I think I can say with some certainty, that the long passes and the high passing yards against were a direct result of the front line/pass rush deficiencies all year. We can look at Tramon and Shields and even Woodson and (besides the INT's) they "look to" have had a down year. But in reality - when you disect this defense - their "poor-ish" play was a direct result of an ineffective pass rush. When you give even a mediocre QB time to find an open receiver, there's less and less any "great" CB could do.

This 3-4 defense we saw this year is (as PackMan and others state more eloquently than I do) is a pass rusher and off the edge OLB compliment to CMIII away from being a stellar defense again. Pressure the QB, disallow him to step up and our CB's become tight cover cornerbacks once again.

I truly believe we are two defensive "studs" (poor choice of words, perhaps) away from becoming a top 15 (or top 10??) defense again. Can TT pull off another "Raji-Matthews" first day again in 2012. I hope so!! 

One thing to remember, we didn't start the season playing the same sort of defense we played in 2010. In 2010, when the defense went from so so to phenominal, we started playing a lot of single high safety with Charlie Peprah up in the box(because Capers didn't trust P-Stank to play deep coverages). With his freakish range and athleticism we were able to crush on all of the short to intermediate routes and use Nick Collins to run down the quick deep lobs Ed Reed style. This way we were able to take away the short to intermediate routes, force teams to drive the ball down the field and make lower percentage throws and force QBs to hold onto the ball.


I think a lot of next season's prognosis depends on Nick Collins, if he comes back with only a minor impediment our defense should see a significan upgrade. Much depends on Nick Collins range of motion in the neck.

I truly believe we are two defensive "studs" (poor choice of words, perhaps) away from becoming a top 15 (or top 10??) defense again. Can TT pull off another "Raji-Matthews" first day again in 2012. I hope so!!

We might be closer than you think, getting Collins back would be huge and you never know with this team's offseason program. We've seen a lot of players go from warm body/marginal starters to playmaking studs. Look at Williams, Collins, Rodgers, Nelson and Finley. This team has a fantastic merger of scouting and talent development. 

I dont get all of the hawk hate? The guy would be a starting linebacker on any team in the league especially at his salary.

Here is my problem with A.J. Hawk.  After 6 years as a 1st round pick, A. J. Hawk should be a force at the middle linebacker spot in the NFL.  He is far from this.  As a rookie, Clay Matthews did more in coverage and pass rush than Hawk ever dreamed of doing, all while being double teamed.  You want to have success against the Packers, throw underneath down the middle where the linebackers are a step or two behind their assignment.

Hawk is always flinging himself at a tackle because he is late to the play and is not is a position to front the play.  Hawk dragged for a couple more yards after play that has already yielded substantial yardage is a common story.  You simply need to look at the highlight of the Giants put-away touchdown pass to Mario Manningham in the 4th fourth quarter to see Hawk at in coverage.  He is jumping up and down, as if he is doing jumping jacks, waving his arms like he is trying to distract Eli Manning from making a field goal.  If it weren't so pathetic it would be comical.

Dom Capers sat A.J. Hawk when he was trying to establish the 3-4 scheme.  The linebackers are the heart of this defense and Capers needed guys who could get to the passer, cover underneath and stop the rush.  As a veteran, Hawk didn't fit any of those roles very well.  If it weren't for injuries and TT's failure to provide any real talent at ILB, Hawk would have been collecting dust on the sidelines.  I will grant you that Hawk was smart enough to restructure his contract so that he could continue to play for this team.  He realized that "if you can't play up to your contract then you must reduce your cost".  Kind of like a clearance thing.

Don't get me wrong, Hawk is not the problem with the Packers defense.  He is just one of the spots that needs to be upgraded if we are to improve this defense.