Who can Mayweather fight without "fan" excuses

Manny fought him right after being knocked silly by loaded gloves and forced him to drain down to 145.  Floyd is moving up to fight him at his natural weight and when Cotto is coming off 3 KO title fights.  He's not the same Cotto Manny fought.

There you go stretching the truth again!  I guess you missed the 2 fights AFTER he lost to Marg's which he won??  And this will be his 4th fight at 154.  The fight before Manny at 145, he weighed in at 146 against Clottey.  Make all the excuses you want, but Manny will whip him again 147 or 154!

Pimp,

Yes, I am talking about that Andre that has 1 loss.  I scored the fight for Andre, but am not upset over the decision because he did nothing.  All I've seen so far from Andre is that he can run and outbox a 1 dimensional poor-man's (more like homeless-man's) Winky Wright.  Other than that, he has proven very little in the ring.  The talent is there, but why would Sergio fight him?  And again, would HBO or Showtime even pick that fight up with the purse they would have to pay Sergio?  Maybe, maybe not.  Hell, Showtime doesn't even want to pick up Bute vs Froch and that fight has a guaranteed 15k people at the gate.

And you are entitled to believe Sergio is overrated.  I don't agree, even if he did look sluggish in his last fight vs Barker.  I just don't think he was up for that fight, and when he decided to care, he ended it.  And I never said you hated Sergio, I said Flopp did.  He is bad mouthing the guy on a personal level, yet Sergio has been nothing but professional.  I just want to know where the hate is coming from. 

I will ask one more time, why would Sergio call out Andre Ward?  There is no reason for it other than to appease us fans.  Sure, I would love to see the fight, and I think Andre takes it by decision, but there is no monetary gain for Sergio.  Atleast when I was begging for Floyd to fight PWill (before Sergio ended that guy's career) there was money, since Floyd brings the money no matter who he fights.  Ward/Sergio gets Sergio a slightly better purse than his fight vs. Barker.  A fight with Manny or Floyd brings Sergio 5 times that amount.  Again, why would he call out Andre Ward?  Hmmmm, I can drop 10lbs and make $10mil, or I can gain 8lbs and make the same amount I normally make?  Which one am I going to pursue?

And one last thing.  I never said Floyd was overrated.  I think he's the best since a prime RJJ.  I just don't think he's fought the best, and he belongs in prison for his actions outside the ring.  Just think, if you beat your ex-wife and threatened your children, then a week later got into a physical altercation with a security guard, all while being invesitgated and sued for a possible murder for hire plot, don't you think you would end up in jail?  But then again, you don't generate $50mil for the Las Vegas economy, so I guess it's okay for Floyd to commit felonies as long as he fights twice a year in Vegas.

What's the excuse for the Mayweather/Cotto fight?  

No excuses from me this time Pimp.  Props to Mayweather for Fighting a deserving opponent.  I've been wanting this matchup for years now.  And while I am giving Floyd props for fighting him, I am so hoping Cotto pulls this one off.  Should be a great fight.    

@ Thorn

 Flopp,

Are you serious with mentioning Andre Dirrell as a possible opponent for Sergio?  Dude, Andre Dirrell needs to actually prove he is worthy of a fight with Sergio.  What has Dirrell done exactly to be so admired on this board?  He has plenty of talent, I see that.  But why would Sergio fight him?  Would Showtime or HBO even pick that fight up?  Not sure they would with the amount Sergio would take and the fact that Dirrell is such an unknown and unproven commodity.

 Dirrell crossed the pond and gave Froch, a guy who is so highly regarded by most, a boxing lesson. I don't care what the official record says, Andre beat that man in his own backyard. Dirrell also beat the thunderous punching Abraham and even dropped him before getting caught and getting blantantly fouled!  To me what has Sergio done to prove he should get a big fight with Manny or Floyd? He beat a weight drained drunk and lucky punched Williams out, beat some no name foriegner moving up from 154 and looked like crap against a middle of the road type guy in Barker. Besides, the run he is on started with a loss to Williams to begin with! 

He wants to fight Floyd because of money.  No ****!!!!  But how can you blame him?  He can drop 10lbs and make $10mil, or move up 8 lbs and make maybe, maybe $1.5mil.  Which would you pursue?  And he would get major credit for beating Manny or Floyd.  He is 2 inches taller with a 3 inch reach advantage over Floyd.  And why all the hate for him, like personal hate?  He's done nothing but act like a professional, yet you suck on Mayweather's nipples and he acts like a ****ing jackass woman-beating scum.

 Pay attention to what I've already said Thorn! The economics of the whole thing are more than obvious, to which I've acknowledged more than once! So let me ask you this. Do you think Martinez would chase Ward or Bute if they were the sports top draws like Floyd or Manny? I don't and that's my point! All I'm saying is IMO, he isn't begging and pleading to fight Floyd or Manny because he wants to test himself. Would Floyd get major credit dropping 10 lbs and beating up Brandon Rios or Robert Guerrro or Gamboa? Besides, don't you think think Martinez feels pretty good about the physical advantages he would have over 99% of the 147 lb fighters in the world? In summary, Sergio wants Manny or Floyd for a big payday, no s--t Sherlock and good for him! He doesn't want either guy because he wants to test himself which is my entire point that seems to get missed for some reason....

 Are you on Sergio's payroll? A blood relative? Perhaps a close personal friend? If you answered no to all three of those questions, than why are you so bothered that I don't like Sergio? I also don't see your "personal attacks" angle. I don't know this man to personally hate him. Is pointing out the fact that he has done pretty much nothing his whole career outside the last two years or so, which is true btw, your definition of a personal attack? Is mentioning that Sergio has ONE more big win than Victor Ortiz, which btw is also true, a personal attack? This is funny calling Floyd a f--king jackass woman beating scum is a personal attack, true or not! Saying Sergio is garbage and hasn't really done much IMO to be so highly regarded, not so much. Slim this is sports, if you think the world of Martinez and his professionalism, good for you, you are more than entitled to that. Everyone who posts here doesn't root for or like the same fighters which is why we have debates and discussions on different things. 



 





 

Lucky punch huh?  Or was it just that his punch was straighter, harder, and quicker than PWill's punch?  And if you're going to claim Andre won his fight with Froch "no matter what the record says", I'm claiming Sergio should've got the nod vs. Williams the first time.  Atleast Sergio fought, Dirrell just ran the whole time, refusing to engage while also not throwing punches.  BTW, if you think Arthur is so poor and Froch is just average, why would these be quality wins in your eyes?

Are you really arguing the "testing himself" theory?  Use that theory on your boy Floyd and get back to me, because he certainly wasn't "testing himself" against Hatton, JMM, Ortiz, etc.  Maybe 7 years ago he was "testing himself", but he sure hasn't been lately, although I will not rip him for fighting Cotto, I think that's a good fight.

I'm not bothered by the attacks, just wanted to know why they seem so personal, hence the reason I asked kid.  See, I can be cool too and add things like slim, sport, tiger, kid, etc to sentences to make it seem like I'm talking to a child. 

And yes, I think Martinez would chase Ward or Bute if they made him the same money Floyd would.  IMO, Sergio knows he is getting old and his skills are deterioriating at his age so he better cash in ASAP, hence begging for Floyd and Manny.

I acknowledge that Sergio has limited quality wins (Pavlik, PWill twice, and Dzinzurik).  You may not think much of Sergiy, but he is a quality fighter with a rather stiff jab.  Not a world beater, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were able to beat Canelo with that jab.

Tiger, this is sports, and if you think the world of a woman beating POS, than good for you!  And yes, it's a very personal attack on PBF, I despise people that put their hands on women, threaten children, people that set up murder for hire plots, etc.  I would think most people do, but I was apparently way off.

Lucky punch huh?  Or was it just that his punch was straighter, harder, and quicker than PWill's punch?  And if you're going to claim Andre won his fight with Froch "no matter what the record says", I'm claiming Sergio should've got the nod vs. Williams the first time.  Atleast Sergio fought, Dirrell just ran the whole time, refusing to engage while also not throwing punches.  BTW, if you think Arthur is so poor and Froch is just average, why would these be quality wins in your eyes?

 Ok, so you think Sergio actually beat Williams the first time, I think Dirrell beat Froch. There you have it, but so what? Additionally, the media talking heads think highly of Froch and gave Abraham his props at the time, so why wouldn't they be? 

Are you really arguing the "testing himself" theory?  Use that theory on your boy Floyd and get back to me, because he certainly wasn't "testing himself" against Hatton, JMM, Ortiz, etc.  Maybe 7 years ago he was "testing himself", but he sure hasn't been lately, although I will not rip him for fighting Cotto, I think that's a good fight.

 Sorry that there isn't a fighter on Floyd's level talent wise. Let me apologize to you for that. Curse Floyd for not challenging Wlad or Vitali to "test' himself. I don't see what difference that makes anyway, especially since I was talking about SERGIO and how he wants to chase around welterweights, but whatever. 

I'm not bothered by the attacks, just wanted to know why they seem so personal, hence the reason I asked kid.  See, I can be cool too and add things like slim, sport, tiger, kid, etc to sentences to make it seem like I'm talking to a child.  

 If you're not bothered what difference does it make what my opinions (key word) of Sergio are. You seem to like him, that should be all that matters right? Besides, there were no personal attacks sport, IDK what you're talking about, maybe you don't either...

And yes, I think Martinez would chase Ward or Bute if they made him the same money Floyd would.  IMO, Sergio knows he is getting old and his skills are deterioriating at his age so he better cash in ASAP, hence begging for Floyd and Manny.

  Really? You believe that? Well good for you, because I don't, but if I were you I'd probably say the same thing. I guess if Sergio is still relevant in a year ot two and Bute and Ward continue to win, maybe we will find out for sure.

I acknowledge that Sergio has limited quality wins (Pavlik, PWill twice, and Dzinzurik).  You may not think much of Sergiy, but he is a quality fighter with a rather stiff jab.  Not a world beater, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were able to beat Canelo with that jab.

   Canelo is no good either, so what does that amount to? IMO, not very much!!

Tiger, this is sports, and if you think the world of a woman beating POS, than good for you!  And yes, it's a very personal attack on PBF, I despise people that put their hands on women, threaten children, people that set up murder for hire plots, etc.  I would think most people do, but I was apparently way off.

 Say whatever you'd like about Floyd. I really don't care. I'm certainly not going to ask you why you "personally attack" him. It doesn't matter. The bottomline is I think Sergio is garbage. Again, sorry if that ruins your day Thorn.

 When you talk to Sergio again, tell him it's nothing personal, I just think he's no good.

 Oh and be careful when you step down off of your soap box playa! (slim and tiger were used already)

 

  

So if the media hypes someone, and it works out in your favor (ie the quality wins of Dirrell vs Froch and Abraham) you count them.  I didn't ask if the media thought they were quality wins, I asked you because you think Froch and Abraham are scrubs.  I think they are quality wins, but why would you if neither fighter is worth a shit****?

You criticize Sergio for chasing around welterweights, but not Floyd for fighting a lightweight?  Check.

If Sergio is still relevant in a year or two, he will probably have to fight one of the two, there will be no fighters left.  Right now Ward is marinating after his win, and refusing to fight Bute.  His reasoning for not fighting Bute is pathetic.  I don't think he's scared, that's not what I'm trying to imply, it just bullshit**** on his part with lame excuses.  And Bute is trying to fight Froch, but nobody wants to pick up the fight.  Too big for EPIX, HBO won't take it because Bute still has one fight committed to Showtime after this fight, and Showtime paid for Bute to fight the winner of the Super Six, not the loser, and Ward is making that fight impossible to make.

And yes, I'm the one on the soapbox.  That last sentence is dripping with irony.

I didn't ask if the media hyped the guys, I asked why YOU consider them quality wins if the guys aren't quality fighters.  If the guys aren't quality fighters, then how can the win be a quality win?  Because the media says so?  Well, the media is on Tebow's jock, does that make him a quality QB?  So you must think that Tebow is a quality QB right?

You bash Sergio for chasing around welterweights, but don't bash PBF for chasing around lightweights?  Check.

If Sergio is still around in a year or two (remember, the guy is 36 and he started his career at 147), he will probably have to fight either Ward or Bute.  There will be nobody left to fight.

And yes, I'm the one on the soapbox.  If I'm on a soapbox, what are you on, talking down to everyone all the time?

One more thing, what's your opinion of Ward basically ducking a fight with Bute?

I didn't ask if the media hyped the guys, I asked why YOU consider them quality wins if the guys aren't quality fighters.  If the guys aren't quality fighters, then how can the win be a quality win?  Because the media says so?  Well, the media is on Tebow's jock, does that make him a quality QB?  So you must think that Tebow is a quality QB right?

You bash Sergio for chasing around welterweights, but don't bash PBF for chasing around lightweights?  Check.

If Sergio is still around in a year or two (remember, the guy is 36 and he started his career at 147), he will probably have to fight either Ward or Bute.  There will be nobody left to fight.

And yes, I'm the one on the soapbox.  If I'm on a soapbox, what are you on, talking down to everyone all the time?

One more thing, what's your opinion of Ward basically ducking a fight with Bute?

God I hate my work computer.

God I hate my work computer.

You once mentioned that you work in the Adult entertainment industry...keys on the keyboard must be sticking...:)Sorry, I had to do it!!

So if the media hypes someone, and it works out in your favor (ie the quality wins of Dirrell vs Froch and Abraham) you count them.  I didn't ask if the media thought they were quality wins, I asked you because you think Froch and Abraham are scrubs.  I think they are quality wins, but why would you if neither fighter is worth a ****?

Nothing works out in my favor Thorn. The media also thinks that Martinez is the bee's knee's, I don't share that sentiment but what does that matter? If someone were to beat him why wouldn't it be a quality win, regardless of my opinion? Same goes for Froch and Abraham...

You criticize Sergio for chasing around welterweights, but not Floyd for fighting a lightweight?  Check.

 Ummm, I've explained the whole Martinez thing about three or four times. I don't care who he fights, he can fight Ivan Calderon if he wants to, good for him!!!! That's fine with me as far as Floyd goes. Floyd also went up to 154 and beat a guy who had fought as a middleweight. I know, I know DLH was old and whatever else. He's also signed to fight Cotto, but we all know that fight is wayy too late and Cotto is damaged goods and all that good stuff. So I guess I can give Mayweather a pass on JMM. What's Sergio's excuse? Maybe Martinez can get the Gamboa-Rios winner @ 140Lbs if he begs hard enough.......

If Sergio is still relevant in a year or two, he will probably have to fight one of the two, there will be no fighters left.  Right now Ward is marinating after his win, and refusing to fight Bute.  His reasoning for not fighting Bute is pathetic.  I don't think he's scared, that's not what I'm trying to imply, it just bull**** on his part with lame excuses.  And Bute is trying to fight Froch, but nobody wants to pick up the fight.  Too big for EPIX, HBO won't take it because Bute still has one fight committed to Showtime after this fight, and Showtime paid for Bute to fight the winner of the Super Six, not the loser, and Ward is making that fight impossible to make.

I don't see Sergio fighting any of the guys at 168. Again, if you believe he will your entitled to that.....

And yes, I'm the one on the soapbox.  That last sentence is dripping with irony.

Ok, so we agree on something!

I didn't ask if the media hyped the guys, I asked why YOU consider them quality wins if the guys aren't quality fighters.  If the guys aren't quality fighters, then how can the win be a quality win?  Because the media says so?  Well, the media is on Tebow's jock, does that make him a quality QB?  So you must think that Tebow is a quality QB right?

Tebow is awesome! Are you happy? After I'm done typing this I will be Tebowing...

If Sergio is still around in a year or two (remember, the guy is 36 and he started his career at 147), he will probably have to fight either Ward or Bute.  There will be nobody left to fight.

 Well, that's good for you then since you are a fan of his. It really doesn't matter to me, I can't stress that enough.....

And yes, I'm the one on the soapbox.  If I'm on a soapbox, what are you on, talking down to everyone all the time?

 I guess I do talk down to everyone. Right again Thorn. Perhaps you are just waaayyyy to sensitive. Either way though, I'm not going to argue.....

One more thing, what's your opinion of Ward basically ducking a fight with Bute?

 I think Ward should fight Bute. I'm of the opinion that after winning FOY and winning the Super Six, Ward feels like he's in the elite category and wants Bute to build himself up further so Andre can get a mega-payday. That's my spin on it, but I think he should fight him now and not be in a Juan Ma/Gamboa situation if Bute were to lose. So to answer your question, I think Andre "ducking" Bute sucks because I want to see that fight.

I used the word ducking as there basically is no other word to describe flat out refusing to fight the #2 in your division.  I don't believe Andre is scared in any way.  I would pick Andre to win that fight.  Problem with the whole "Bute should build his name" argument is Bute had nobody to build his name against the last 2 years, every other name was tied up in the Super Six.  So for him to build his name, he needs to fight who, guys Ward has already beaten?  Andre Direll (who isn't a name either, atleast not yet, hence why he was on ShoBox)?  I'm sure he'd fight Sergio, but I don't see that fight happening unless it's absolutely clear Sergio can't get Floyd or Manny for super money. 

Btw, is it just a hunch that you think Sergio will never fight any of the 168ers?  He may not, I have no idea, but after Macklin, where does he go?  Canelo?  JCC?  HBO or Showtime aren't going to buy fights with him fighting cans, and he can't make real money without those networks, plus he's now 37, so where would he go?  I'm trying to follow your path of thinking.  He's not May or Pac or even Cotto and he doesn't wield that power.

I used the word ducking as there basically is no other word to describe flat out refusing to fight the #2 in your division.  I don't believe Andre is scared in any way.  I would pick Andre to win that fight.  Problem with the whole "Bute should build his name" argument is Bute had nobody to build his name against the last 2 years, every other name was tied up in the Super Six.  So for him to build his name, he needs to fight who, guys Ward has already beaten?  Andre Direll (who isn't a name either, atleast not yet, hence why he was on ShoBox)?  I'm sure he'd fight Sergio, but I don't see that fight happening unless it's absolutely clear Sergio can't get Floyd or Manny for super money.  

I guess Ward's advisors got in his ear and told him Bute wasn't big enough yet IDK. Bute hasn't beaten the caliber of guys Ward has, mainly because he wasn't in the Super Six, so I agrre that there isn't really anyone to build his name on. I really think Ward shoould just fight Bute and be done with it.  If Ward agrees to fight Bute in Canada he is going to need to put him in a body bag to win. Andrade had Bute KTFO, but Lucian got a Dempsey-esque long count and survived, lol that was criminal, but what do you expect in the other guy's backyard? At least he gave him a re-match though. 

Btw, is it just a hunch that you think Sergio will never fight any of the 168ers?  He may not, I have no idea, but after Macklin, where does he go?  Canelo?  JCC?  HBO or Showtime aren't going to buy fights with him fighting cans, and he can't make real money without those networks, plus he's now 37, so where would he go?  I'm trying to follow your path of thinking.  He's not May or Pac or even Cotto and he doesn't wield that power.

If I can find the link I will post it, but Martinez was saying he's a small Middleweight and he wasn't sure about fighting at 168. That tells me he probably won't unless he would get a truckload of money, which he won't unless it's Ward or Bute. Then again, why would he fight bigger, more talented guys for money less than possibly or at least comparable to what he can make fighting Jr Middies or Middleweights. Obviously a fight with JC jr or Canelo would be money fights. Kirkland maybe if he wins in spectacular fashion in his next bout. Andy Lee has a bit of a following. These are all guys I'm sure Sergio feels he matches up well with or has some type of advantge over, be that size, skill, power, quickness,or whatever. At 168 he has no advantages at all, well not over Ward or Bute.

If Ward were to fight in Canada, I agree, he would have to just blow away Bute.  And also agree with the Andrade-Bute fight.  I know Ward sees himself as a star, I don't doubt he has the talent of a star, but he isn't a big draw, unless in Oakland, but still not a huge draw in Oakland (based on previous fights).  Bute will sell out a 15k stadium in Montreal, and if they would somehow throw in Pascal on the undercard, that could possibly sell out a 25k stadium.  The amount of money to be made just off gate probably dictates the fight heads to Montreal.  Btw, who should Ward fight?  Give Kessler a rematch?  Cloud after how bad he looked vs Campillo?  Would like to see him fight Cloud, but I don't see how Cloud competes after being exposed.  Not interested in a Kessler rematch.  Maybe Chad Dawson?  Shumenov?  Cleverly?

Sergio started at 147, so he would be a smallish 168er.  Apparently the WBC has ordered Chavez to fight Sergio next if both win, so Sergio will get his wish of a good payday.  Andy Lee vs Kirkland to see who fights the winner of JCC vs Sergio, esp if it's on the undercard of JCC vs Sergio, would be solid IMO.  Not much else at middleweight, even though I'm not sure Kirkland wants to go back up to middleweight even if offered that scenario.  And I agree, Sergio holds almost no advantages at 168 over Ward or Bute.  Maybe slight power advantage vs Ward knowing Sergio's left hand, maybe some hand speed vs Bute, but those are arguable and definitely not clear.

If Ward were to fight in Canada, I agree, he would have to just blow away Bute.  And also agree with the Andrade-Bute fight.  I know Ward sees himself as a star, I don't doubt he has the talent of a star, but he isn't a big draw, unless in Oakland, but still not a huge draw in Oakland (based on previous fights).  Bute will sell out a 15k stadium in Montreal, and if they would somehow throw in Pascal on the undercard, that could possibly sell out a 25k stadium.  The amount of money to be made just off gate probably dictates the fight heads to Montreal.  Btw, who should Ward fight?  Give Kessler a rematch?  Cloud after how bad he looked vs Campillo?  Would like to see him fight Cloud, but I don't see how Cloud competes after being exposed.  Not interested in a Kessler rematch.  Maybe Chad Dawson?  Shumenov?  Cleverly?

If Ward doesn't want Bute just yet, his only other choice for a decent payday seems like the Dawson-Hopkins winner. Chavez jr would be an interesting fight. No way that kid stays at 160. His last 3 fights he's weighed about 180 each fight. That's about what a Super-Middie would rehydrate to. No way that fight happens though. So I guess its really only Bute, although Cloud would be interesting. maybe he had a bad night. Cloud is normal pretty solid, not spectacular but pretty solid. I do expect Ward to get a few soft touches in his next few fights though.....

Sergio started at 147, so he would be a smallish 168er.  Apparently the WBC has ordered Chavez to fight Sergio next if both win, so Sergio will get his wish of a good payday.  Andy Lee vs Kirkland to see who fights the winner of JCC vs Sergio, esp if it's on the undercard of JCC vs Sergio, would be solid IMO.  Not much else at middleweight, even though I'm not sure Kirkland wants to go back up to middleweight even if offered that scenario.  And I agree, Sergio holds almost no advantages at 168 over Ward or Bute.  Maybe slight power advantage vs Ward knowing Sergio's left hand, maybe some hand speed vs Bute, but those are arguable and definitely not clear.

I saw the WBC has Sergio as the mandatory. It's gonna be interesting to see if the WBC sticks to their own rules and strips Jr if he doesn't fight Sergio, or if they make some bogus, half assed exception to let him keep the title. Arum said no to Martinez at least for the next two fights, so let's see what goes down.

Now this is what I was looking for, a good discussion without either of us standing on a soapbox or calling the other a haters lol.


Ward will definitely take on a soft fight, and I'm not really opposed to that.  Maybe Cloud had a bad night, or maybe Campillo exposed him.  If it's the latter, Ward eats Cloud alive, IMO.  And I would much prefer to see Sergio vs JCC or Canelo vs JCC, as I think Ward is a supreme talent and JCC would just be so overwhelmed.  Also, nice point about JCC blowing up and his weight cut, I just don't know if he is really big enough to fight at 168.  He should probably see a nutrionist, so the weight cut isn't so drastic if he plans on staying at 160.

And it's a good point, Arum doesn't need to feed JCC to two of the top 5 p4p guys (Sergio and Ward) if JCC can make some money while fighting gatekeepers.  And I can't see the WBC stripping JCC, Sulamain (sp?) is a fuck****ing joke.  Them and the WBA just make shit**** up as they go along.  WTF**** is a silver belt?

JCC hasn't fought outside Texas (where drug testing is not required) since he tested positive for a banned substance after his fight in Vegas on the undercard of Manny/Cotto.  Arum will continue to spoon feed beatable guys who will fight JCC in Texas as long as he continues to make money.  He has no reason to put him in against real competition.  His fights sell regardless of opponent.


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