Response To Pistones HOF Article by Red Vogt Jr

Don't know whether anybody read Pete Pistones article about the next HOF class being more diverse -

I thought his choices were well thought out & well reasoned ; especially Barney Hall -

What I found interesting was the first ( & so far the only ) response -

The response was by "REDVOGT" & seeing that name , my NASCAR radar went off - 

REDVOGT felt so strongly about Pistones article that he created an account to respond - 

After reading his response - although some body else may (or may not) have typed it for him judging by misspells & his age by now - I'd thought I'd post it hear to get it a broader reading -

I have to assume the poster is who he says he is - after all how many times do you see someone leave their phone number ?

Just wanted to see what the board thinks about it -  

Next Hall of Fame Class should be diverse

Your logic seems accurate with regard to Ramond Parks ("Uncle Raymond" he was known to me) and "Red" Byron {who indeed was more of a big Brother to me than my own} and whose foot I either bolted to the clutch or placed into the sturrip we had to structure for his brace to fit into befoe EACH race.  BUT -- you seem to skip over what I feel is a ligitimate point in spite of my own personal bias which is unavoidable if I speak on the subject of who should be in the Hall of Fame.  You see, my Father, Louis Jerome "RED" Vogt, Sr. was indeed the originator of the whole idea of what is now known as NASCAR and no one seems to recognize this.  He Incorporated NSCRA in Georgia in 1929 and had already adopted the name NASCAR for the planned reorganization of this Sanctioning Group when it was recognized that the Promoters being used were absconding with the Entry Monies before the Races had concluded. Dad OWNED the CHARTERS for BOTH of these names in Georgia before HE CALLED FOR THE MEETINGS IN DAYTONA BEACH IN NOVEMBER-DECEMBER of 1947.  Dad was running wat was then the only 24/2 Automobile servicing Business on the East Coast and this required his full attention and he theefore needed to depend upon others to Permote his Races - most of whom were just Bootleggers.

I want you to understand that I am the #2 Son of "RED" Vogt and THE LAST PERSON KNOWN ALIVE TO SIT AT ALL OF THE MEETINGS ins November and December in the Streamline hotle in Daytona Beach, FL in 1947.  I know what happened in the years before those meetings in the discussions between my Dad, Raymond Parks, "Bill" France, Bill Tuthill, my Mother, Ruth Maddox Vogt, The Attorney Orrsinsky, and about 7 or 8 others that were intermittenly present. These discussions took place in Atlanta at my Dad's place of Business at 556 Spring St. NW, at our Townhome at 552 W. Peachtree St. NW, one block from the business, at our home in Eastlake and at times other locations in Daytona Beach, Fl and in Charlotte, NC.  I certainly was NOT present at everyone of these meetings but I was when held at the Atlanta locations and many in Florida.  I know what was said and by whom, when and where!  AND - I am the only person alive today heo knows these things. Believe this because it is true.  My STEP MOTHER NOR STEP SISTER NEITHER WERE THERE -- they entered my life much, much later. 

NSCRA and NASCAR WAS MY FATHER'S IDEA IN 'THEIR' ORIGIN -- AND THAT IS THAT! He came up with the name NASCAR simply from the words used in NSCRA "The National Stock Car Racing Association"  -- just look simply at the words in NASCAR - " The National Association Association for Stock Car Auto Racing" -- I have no way of highlighting the words for you here but it is fairly simple to see.  He had the habit of calling "Cars" or "Auto's" = "Automobiles" 
; -- as he had learned that from the days that he had worked at "The Universal Cadallic Corp" in Washington, DC starting at the age of 13.  The word "AUTO" in NASCAR was originally "AUTOMOBILE"  as Dad had written it but my Mother laughed at that and admonished him to change it to "AUTO" because she feared everyone would scoff at him. 

The MASTER POINT I am attempting to get you to see here is that-- YES PARKS and BYRON belong in the HoF  - but do you not comprehend that without Lousi Jerome "RED" VOGT, Sr. thre virtually may never have been a NASCAR for thee to be a Hall of Fame to be represented by?  Of course I am biased - naturally.  But there is so much MISINFORMATION AND STORIES OUT THERE ABOUT MY FATHER THAT ARE TOTALLY FALSE and these need to be corrected and the tRUTH needs to get out.

William H. G. "Bill" France DID NOT FOUND NASCAR!  HE DID NOT!!  All he did was gain control of all of the initial NASCAR Corporation Stock and then claim himself the Founder.  That is a travisity and it has caused a horrible miscarriage of truth in history and there has been therefore years of REVISIONIST HISTORY WRITTEN ABOUT THIS BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BELIEVED THESE FALSE STORIES.

I implore YOU to use your strong research capability and see if I am not telling your the TRUTH.  I AM!  My Dad should have been one of the FIRST PEOPLE TO BE INDUCTED INTO THE HALL OF FAME OF THE ORGANIZATION WHICH HE FOUNDED.

C. THOMAS VOGT, Ph.D., JD Professor, Retired
AKA: "Little Red" Vogt
PO BOX 1352
SANTA MARIA, CA, 93456
CELL: 805-878-6892
FAX:805-925-4436

oops ! my mistake - after rereading -  it wasn't Red Vogt Jr but "Little Red" Vogt - I apologize -

 that late night comprehension & (subsequently) late night typing comes back to haunt me again  !

And you can bet the France family will be shaking in their boots when they read this. 

Come on Pete, this is your chance to set the record straight and put yourself in a light above all the other reporters.  Do you have the guts to challenge the France family and let the truth be known. 

It was very interesting to see Mr. Vogt's reply to Pete's blog.  Obiviously feels very strongly about what happened.  It would be interesting to see if there are collaborating testimonals out there to back up this strong reply.  Old newspaper articles, interviews, books, something.  Revisionist history is nothing new in sports for sure.  

One thing for certain, it would be interesting to know just exactly how everytning went down in those formative stages of the sport.  Somtimes from conflicting viewpoints research can uncover some truths about situations.  Would be interested if Mr.Vogt would right another piece on exactly what happened.  The why's and how's  would be interesting.  Did his dad voluntarily give up "control"?  Was he the type of person who could advance the sport?  What were the finances like, was that a factor then?  Did he have the respect and personality needed to run a sport with a ton of characters in it?  There are many in history who had great ideas yet it took someone else to see beyond the immediate time and turn the idea into an enduring product.  Things we as fans will never know for certain.

Hope he has the time to add to his reply to Pete's blog.  Would be interesting. 

i RAN ACROSS THIS....
                    
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_eziLj6F_E





28  9  43

Shouldn't that be Sables in Kirsties case.  Got to sew two together.

SUPER, just pullin' your chain a little.  

Who would win in a Cheetos eating contest...SUPER or Kirstie.  If this event ever occurs I hope we get advance notice so we can go load up on Frito-Lay stock before the event.  Gonna be some serious carnage to old Chester Cheeto there. 

Thanks for posting this I am a NASCAR fan and never saw this very interesting and at the same time I dont know how to react except wow

And you can bet the France family will be shaking in their boots when they read this.

Come on Pete, this is your chance to set the record straight and put yourself in a light above all the other reporters. Do you have the guts to challenge the France family and let the truth be known.

Mikey, how do you know that the person that wrote that is actually "Red" Vogt's son? The information in that post can easily be found with a simple google search. Heck check out legendsofnascar.com, and read about Vogt. Everything is right there. The writer claims that nobody recognizes that he came up with the idea, yet the very first sentence in that link says he was the one who named NASCAR. It's likely that he talked with France about NASCAR, but then France took the ball and ran with it. Wouldn't be the first time someone took someone's idea and got rich off of it.

Section I did google it, and it all appears to be the same individual.  Read what he said, He said Bill France accumulated all the stock and then took credit for coming up with the name and the idea. 

That is what I want Pete to check out.  Is the story true?  If so what does the France family have to say about it?  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was true.

The fact the individual gave his phone number at the end of the article gives a little bit of credibility to the article don't you think? 

I don't think a phone number and address gives any credibility at all mikey. I'm not saying that France didn't take advantage of a situation, but I'm not going to say he did based on a post by an anonymous person..

My number is 610-489-1234 (see it looks like a number, but if you call it, you won't get me)
I live at
1313 Mockingbird Lane
Munsterville, PA 12345

Does posting that phone number and address give me credibility? I'm sure Pete will see that and investigate, but for all anybody knows I could have created a bogus account and posted that information. (just for the record, it wasn't me)

Section, take a gander of this site,  It is dedicated to Raymond Parks and in it, it acknowledges Red Voyt quite often and even states in it he was the one who came up with the name and mentions his garage in Atlanta. 

http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Raym
ond_Parks.htm

Mikey, I linked to legendsofnascar.com a bit earlier. The page dedicated to Vogt has this first sentence. That is why I said everything the "vogt" screen name posted can easily be found online, so I can't say for sure that the guy is actually who he/she claims to be.

<span style="color: #cc0000; font-size: medium;">Louis Jerome "Red" Vogt, the man who named the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, 

I know Section, but you concentrated on Voyt.  I went to Raymond Parks, page and he is dedicated to Voyt too. 

I posted the Vogt thing to show that the person who posted doesn't need to be related to know that information. The extra info on the Parks page just further shows my point.

Yeah, but did you check out the rack on Kirstie Alley???


28  9  43

Section -

While watching the Joe Paterno memorial this afternoon I came back to this post to read the responses -

I was hoping this was going to be a debate on the merits of the post & not the merits of the poster -

Your stance seems to be that "REDVOGT" could just be somebody pretending to be Red Vogt's son - why of all people possible to "pretend" to be , this person chose Red Vogt's son is beyond me -

If I was going to do something like this , I would have pretended to be Jeff & Brooke's love child , Ward Burtons speech coach , Dale Jr's gay lover or Kurt Busch's ear surgeon , but most certainly , Red Vogt's son would be dead last on that list -

The motive for the REDVOGT post should definitely be taken into account - what is he going to get out of a "fraudulent" post ?

His motive seems to be pure in the fact that he's doing this for no other reason than that of a son who admired , looked up to & loved his father and thinks his father should get the credit he deserves even if it is posthumously -

It's not like he's Clifford Irving trying to make money off of a Howard Hughes biography - How is REDVOGT going to profit by this fake post ?  A post in which he leaves a phone number is more likely to cause himself grief by posters like yourself & the crazy nutbags who might call him just to bust his balls - of the nearly 600 views this thread has , I'd bet that at least a few have called out of curiosity - I know I have 
 
Now to some of your points -

 That is why I said everything the "vogt" screen name posted can easily be found online, so I can't say for sure that the guy is actually who he/she claims to be.

Some of the stuff you said could "be found easily on line" - actually can be found online but not easily & not all in one place -

***none of the "specifics" were found on wikipedia***

The part about Red Byron's brace being bolted on I found at http://www.decadesofracing.net/RedB
yron.htm

The only mention I found of the Atty. Ossinsky was at http://www.racintoday.com/archives/
17627

The mention of Cadillac was found at http://www.legendsofnascar.com/Red_
Vogt.htm

The street addresses on Spring St & Peachtree St were very specific and can be found at google maps - type in 553 Spring St. NW atlanta - up on the left is the street view - click on it & youll see the street as it looked 1n 10/07 - on the right you'll see a building with a bunch of diamonds on its facade - Earwax records - click on it - the next view you'll see is that same building being renovated in 8/08 - that building is where Red Vogt had his garage - it's being renovated back to its original look by by an Atlanta attorney named Peter A Law (no pun) - how would a "fraud" know that ???  Especially when nothing on that street looks like it could be an old garage &&& ALSO how would a fraud know that there used to be townhouses on Peachtree St. ???

^^MORE ON HOW I KNOW THIS IN MY NEXT POST^^

I posted the Vogt thing to show that the person who posted doesn't need to be related to know that information.

No . . BUT . . the person might need to be related to know what his mom's maiden name was OR for that matter that he had a stepmother or stepsister -

AND ON THIS MATTER I CHALLENGE YOU (SECTION) TO FIND HIS STEPSISTER'S NAME LET ALONE ANY MENTION OF HER !! -
(I do know it & I will PM it to Mikey when I'm done here so you'll know I'm not scamming you & neither is REDVOGT) 



Further research found 2 comments or references on google >>>

This following comment was found at http://www.rebuildingwellness.com/f
ood-memories-from-fun-memories/

Comments

1. <cite class="fn">C. Thomas Vogt, Ph.D., JD</cite> says: November 7, 2011 at 3:23 pm

   You are a Twitter Friend of #Chief187s whose writing I very much admire and I happened upon you there. She follows you and as such I thought i would see what you were all about! I am duly impressed just as I thought I might be. I look forward to enjoying much, much more of your enlightenment. If you are of a mind, O am on Facebook at LITTLEREDVOGT, Ph.D. – Please Friend me if desired. My Dad “RED” VOGT, was the Founder of NSCRA/NASCAR. There are many historic pictures on my page. (If you enjoy that sort of thing)

   I enjoy keeping abrest of sound nutrition facts and found this ‘Blog’ quite informative and clever.

   Reply

The  only other google reference I found was at http://stockcar.racersreunion.com/p
rofile/CTHOMASLITTLEREDVOGT

 
So Section & other doubters -

IF THIS GUY IS A FAKE , HE'S CERTAINLY PUTTING IN AN AWFUL LOT OF EFFORT

SO PLEASE LET'S TURN THE FOCUS BACK ON THE ORIGINAL POST (NOT THE POSTER) & HAVE A DISCUSSION ON THE VALIDITY OF THE CLAIMS

1st of all, Lighten up dix. I could really care less if this was really Vogts son. In all honesty France had the money and resources needed to launch NASCAR and Vogt didn't France gets all the glory, and Vogt gets screwed. Newsflash, this happens all the time.

2nd of all, who are you to tell me how I can or can't respond to a post on a public message board. If I want to respond by questioning the legitamacy of a poster so be it. If you don't like it, well then you need to grow some thicker skin. I come here to talks sports, and joke around about things. I don't take everything seriously, if you have a problem with it, too bad.

Section -

I wasn't trying to pick a fight or get into a pissing contest with you ( and am still not ) - I was just interested by the original response to Pete Pistone & thought it would be good food for thought here - my last post was not intended to be too serious & was not directly calling you out as much as just asking you to reconsider your stance on the validity of the original post & the details he provided

Let me  state again - THE INTENTION OF MY POST WAS THE MERITS OF THE POST NOT THE MERITS OF THE POSTER - I am not a fan of the France family at all , just check out some of my past posts blasting "Shortbus Brian" & the France 'Sham'ily - My intention was to have a debate on the validity of the claims made by "REDVOGT" -

I had heard the rumurs insinuated by the original post but only thought they were just that - rumurs - BUT out of nowhere comes a post(not here on the boards) that challenges the history that everyone "knows" - I know some people don't like "revisionist history" ( the France family ) & some people just dont like change ( the Catholic Church & Galileo )
  
  *****Don't take any of the following personal , just explaining how your posts came off to me & my thought process*****

Lighten up dix. I could really care less if this was really Vogts son.

You tell me to lighten up (practice what you preach) & you could care less -yet you were the one who took the time to do a little research & add a link in an effort to repudiate REDVOGT's claims in your 1st post , you then put up 3 more posts , all doubting the original posts validity - that (to me) is not "caring less" but just the opposite

In all honesty France had the money and resources needed to launch NASCAR and Vogt didn't

 Yes - France did "get" the money - 

In Atlanta, it was often said that Raymond Parks, reputed to be the city’s biggest bootlegger and numbers runner, helped finance longtime friend France’s operations when “Big Bill” wore the cap of track promoter under the name of his separate company, Bill France Enterprises. As related by his son David, Gober Sosebee often told the story of driving France from Atlanta to Daytona Beach with a briefcase full of cash from Parks. Nothing has ever been verified, although Parks’ wife Violet has also said that the “gentelman bootlegger” confirmed he helped France with finances.

Palmer Bell from Chattanooga explained it this way:

“NASCAR was no stronger than we were.  They also were new.  But France had been around and was a businessman extraordinaire and knew how to smother out the competition.”

“If it had been Sam Nunis against just France, that would have been a different story,” Bell added.  “But France was able to snuff out the smaller promoters with local competition or through buyouts of drivers, owners, or promoters."

 

So - let's put those 2 excerpts together but look at them in a different light & different context -

If we go by them at face value - Is what Bill France did really any different then what Bugsy Siegel did when he started the Flamingo in Las Vegas ? 

They both used "illegal" money - France from bootleggers & Siegel from the Chicago mob 
They both used "illegal" tactics to get to the top - France from payoffs & fixing NASCAR stock prices & Siegel from payoffs & violence

France's family still owns NASCAR & the Chicago mob was run out of Vegas in the 70's

The only difference is how the government looked & still looks upon those activities to this day - white collar vs blue collar - how else did "Occupy Wall Street" & all the other "Occupy" movements come to be ? 

But , I digress -

 France gets all the glory, and Vogt gets screwed. Newsflash, this happens all the time.

Whether its glory or monetary ( in France's case both ) , just because something happens all the time , doesn't mean its right -( i.e. slavery , tafficking of all types ,discrimination )

 who are you to tell me how I can or can't respond

I wasn't telling you HOW to respond , I was asking you TO respond

If I want to respond by questioning the legitamacy of a poster so be it. 

And if i want to question your questioning , isn't that allowed ? All I did was TRY to disprove your premise that all the facts used by the poster were "easily" found online

If you don't like it, well then you need to grow some thicker skin.

 And if you don't like me questioning you , shouldn't you practice what you preach & grow a thicker skin also ?

 I come here to talks sports, and joke around about things.

As do I - on this one we agree

 I don't take everything seriously,

Ok but do you take anything seriously ?

 if you have a problem with it, too bad

So does this mean nobody else's comments & opinions matter but yours ?


So to state once more - What about the claims made by REDVOGT ?