No Defense

It's time to state the obvious.  This Duke team is a BAD defensive team.  Not average, not okay, but BAD (80+ on the Pomeroy metric).  I don't see any major corrections happening either for the rest of the year.  The backcourt is EASILY beaten off the dribble.  The Plumlee brothers still play absent-minded, inconsistent and just generally unintelligent defense on most nights and if that hasn't changed in 3+ years, why would it change in the next 2 months?  I'm not jumping off the ship but this team, regardless of where they finish in the ACC (the terrible ACC) will not go anywhere in the tourney.  Sweet 16 is still likely, but anything beyond that is wishful thinking.  I'm not being cynical or pessimist, just merely stating the truth about where this team is. 

I agree 100% this is one of the worst defensive duke teams in years. Not to mention lack of leadership, I see maybe a sweet 16 but wouldnt be shocked to be bounce in the lucky 32, Hope I dont piss of my duke peers but this team is hard to watch, Our big guys continue to put the ball on the ground as if they are point guards, The only time we look good in the paint is when Mason and Miles are playing UNCG, Seth Curry cant create his on shot neither can Dawkins or Cook, This team just isnt living up to the Duke standerd. wouldnt be shocked if we lose yet another in collage park tonight.

I dont know if Duke has any standerds but I think this team has come a long way on the defensive end. We have had some teams just shoot lights out but I think the defensive pressure has really picked up, especially andre the past couple of games. Tonight will show a lot about our team coming off of a home loss and going into a place where they always play us tough. If we can get a big win tonight, beat up on a bad st. johns team saturday, then we will be rolling and I expect us to beat carolina on the 8th. If that happens you two will be singing the praises of this team. Just give them a chance and let the best coach ever do what hes got to do.

bottom line?

this team lacks toughness.


there is still time to get it together. but without being tough mentally and playing physical we will be looking for an early exit in march. this team - a lot of times - does not even resemble a Coach K team.

on a positive note however, i'm happy to see them bounce back (on the road and in a tough environment no less).

agree on the lack of toughness.  i sure hope we get Parker and/or Shabazz this offseason once Miles and Mason both exit.

As a Carolina fan, I wouldnt worry if I was a Duke fan about defense.   Usually, your team plays it well enough to win most of your games.  All teams have spotty defense at times.  I am still in awe of Austin Rivers, if he stays around he will be very special.  Was very impressed about how your team beat an emotional Maryland team last night.  

We  are winning but our defense is bad. Cant stop penetration and leaving  wide open  jump shots for other teams. Seems like they are lost out there sometimes. Maybe we should be like our last championship team and play off defenders so we want get beat. Thank God!  for Mason and Miles on off.  and def. boards.  Now to our offense. This group so up and down. Rivers plays out of control at times. Curry hit and miss on three's. Dawkins is the same. and kelly as well. We need to feed Mason in post before we jack up all those outside jumpers. Getting tired watching mason killing guys in post then curry or rivers jack up some crazy shots.  Guys need to know their roll. It.s ok to shoot 3 pointers when ball goes inside and back out.

Exactly right on!! Mason was too much for Maryland last night and we looked good when he was getting touches. The problem was when we went away from that strategy and Rivers, Curry and Dawkins hoisted up ill-advised three's. We have some boys that can really stroke it, but for goodness sakes, that doesn't mean throw one up just to make sure you get a few shots on the night. Dawkins shot at least two that were ridiculous. Curry was off for the second straight game. When he has to play the point, his offensive game is awful. He also turns the ball over too much when he is running the point. He makes some horrible, lazy passes!! When he is playing the 2 guard, he plays much better!!

 I appreciate the Carolina fan and his creds to Rivers, but you are certainly not watching the game. Rivers can get to the rim and yes he makes some good plays. He has shown the ability to score at will at times but he is the worst decision maker I have seen in quite a few years at Duke. His game last night was awful! He has tunnel vision 90% of the game and forces his shot consistently. I remember a timeout called by Coach K at around the 7 minute mark. Thornton had just been smoked by Stoglin and they showed the Duke huddle. Thornton was looking at Coach K and didn't see it but Rivers looked at him like you suck. Now Thornton cannot hang with Stoglin's speed and I blame the coaches for allowing Thornton to guard him in the first place. First, I can't stand Rivers ugly face! How he has the nerve to look at someone else like that for getting beat on defense when he doesn't play with any heart on that end of the floor. He is constantly getting burned or doesn't switch when needed. I have said it and will say it again!! His horrible shot selection KILLS US! Everytime we start to build a lead, he thinks he needs to shoot the next 4 times down the court whether he has a shot or not. His decision making will be our demise.

Not having Cook for the last 2 games has hurt us. He is our best point guard and we need him to be at our best! We need Curry playing the 2 and we need Rivers to quit acting like a baby!!

I will say that holy sh!te, I am impressed with Mason going to the line and knocking some down! That is huge if he can continue to do it. That is all the more reason to feed the post consistently. Knock on wood, but that was the only reason to not give him the ball the majority of the time. Like a previous poster said and we have all said this, our best looks from three are when we kick it out from the blocks.

3 things that are holding us back right now!

1) Perimeter Defense-The first half of last night was awful but it improved some in the second half. This problem has hurt the Plumlees' tremendously this year. The reason is they cannot guard their own man and continuously help out on the guard driving the lane. As soon as they leave to help, it opens up their man for a layup or it causes them to lose their positioning for the rebound! The Plumlees' are just fine on defense but the guards have to quit getting smoked and move their feet. Yes, I am talking to you Rivers, Curry, Thornton and Dawkins!!!

2) Team Unity/3 point shooting-Every man should quit looking to pad his own stats and start helping each other score to win ballgames. Our team leader for assists on the season is Curry with 2.7apg. That is horrible!!! Prime example is last night. Mason is dominating but for some strange reason, we feel the need to take off balance 3's. Yes, I am talking to you Austin (pouty face) Rivers. Quit worrying about the scouts and start playing some Duke basketball. Coach K, if he doesn't want to, than sit him on the pine. If we feed the post, then the 3's open up and we become dangerous or make the extra pass on the perimeter. Our shooter are lethal when left wide open. Who cares who scores what, as long as we are scoring!

3)FT %-With Plumlee shooting it better the last 2 games, it has improved. We cannot afford to shoot from the charity stripe like we have for most of the year and expect to advance in March. If Rivers and Plumlee struggle from there, we are doomed. Rivers has to hit them becasue he loves to drive the lane and get fouled. His problem is he doesn't drive strong and finish, so he is usually shooting 2 instead of and 1's. He should be hitting 80% from the line. Plumlee might have worked out his problem and if so, he is no longer a threat to be hacked every time down the floor at the end of ballgames.

If we can get these issues corrected over the next month, we will be a much better squad. It is possible but the guys have to want it.

It will be interesting to see how we handle a St. John's team that is extemely young but plays in your face, pressure the ball defense. I would hope that we could beat them by double-digits. Hopefully Cook is healthy and ready to go!

I hate I missed the look that Rivers gave Thorton. In my opinion Thorton plays harder than anyone on the team. I think Coach K also sees this. Obviously the end result all Dukies want is Wins, but the effort & passion I see from guys like Thorton is why I'm a Dukie.

Doubleotts- You're exactly right about the perimeter defense. You would think that with 3 guards on the floor perimeter D would not be a problem.

btw- I see you're a Chiefs fan. Upcoming season is gonna be interesting in the AFC West, huh? In 37 years as a Raider fan I can't say I ever rooted for the Chiefs, but I did in the Packer game. I just could never stomach Shottenhiemer. Romeo seems to be pretty cool though.

I'm with everyone else.  I love Duke with a passion but this team will not make it past the sweet 16.  Though I think they play hard, their perimeter defense stinks.  Its downright painful watching how easily their guards (esp. Thornton and Dawkins) are beaten off the dribble.  Except for Rivers and Cook, they are so slow, methodical and predictable.  We have a lot more upside with Quinn Cook because he pushes it, can penetrate and create his own shot and makes us play at a faster tempo.  Seth Curry should not be playing PG at all - too slow, no court vision etc.  This team has very l;ittle margin for error. 

I don't like Rivers in all honesty!  Is he a nasty player?  You bet your rear end he is.  HOWEVER, (yes I know he is a Freshman) he is making too many ill-advised shots, passes and drives the lane when there are like 4 defenders waiting for him and all he does is throw up a circus shot with not ability for Duke to rebound and the opposition gets it and usually capitilizes on the other end.

Now, I am not putting all the blame on Rivers but he is a little bit of a problem and it does effect the way the defense gets set up because Rivers is soo fast that he gets down the court before anyone else on Duke can (and usually shoots a stupid shot) which leads to a fast break the other way.

I've also noticed that it doesn't look like Duke really boxes out that much, if at all.  Am I the only one who see's this?

But overall this teams problem is defense. 

The best defensive player on the team is Thorton and he doesn't start or average 20 minutes. This team's defense is a problem most young teams all have. The biggest problem I see, and I've stated this from the get go, is they don't have a PG. Coach K tried Curry and he still has to play point when Cook isn't in there along with Rivers some. Cook has had injury issues and the flu. But they have a decent team. They had no PG in 2010 and won it all. The difference? Seniors and experience. Duke is still young. The best player is Rivers and he's a Freshman. Duke will be a lot better by Tournament time. Coach K is doing another great job this season. I am glad to see Dawkins get starts and some playing time. Duke needs him to play and play well.

redseat, good call!

You are not the only one who sees that they do not block out. The majority of the problem is that the Plumlees' are having to help defend way too often. When a guard gets smoked, he shouldn't just become a spectator, he should find an opposing player and put his rear in his thigh. Yes, that is textbook defense. Like redseat said, it is called blocking out!

I am glad we got the win today but like Coach K said, they better not be happy with the overall performance. We should have blown them out of the gymnasium today! I do agree that our youth does show throughout a game but we still have guys with experience on this squad. I want to believe in this squad so bad and I do, but I am definitely worried about March if we don't hit the maturity button with a quickness. At the moment, I would say Mason is our best player. He has the best oppportunity to dominate a game. Rivers could but his selfishness holds him back from taking the leap to stardom. I keep waiting for the game when he puts it all together. I really miss Kyrie as his leadership would be priceless. He was a mature young man and knew how to control a game. I apologize if it seems like I am placing this all on Rivers. He isn't single-handedly making us worse but he has the most ability and isn't stepping up like he should. Everyone needs to continue to get better. There isn't a player on this team that should think he is as good as he needs to be!!

Truedukie, I am a Chiefs fan!! I live in Kansas City and I do root for my hometown pro teams. I thought you guys were going to win the division after you beat us on Christmas Eve. You blocked 2 of our field goals in that game. If either one of those is good, we win the division. Unreal. The whole division....San Diego, Denver, Oakland and KC were in that boat. One play here or there and anyone of us could have won it. And to think that Tebow and the Broncos did, what a joke! Rivers gave us a game on Halloween night at Arrowhead. I guarantee that the Broncos will not win the division again with Tebow at the helm. I think it will be a close race between the Chargers, you guys and us. We need Charles, Berry and Moeaki to come back healthy. Those 3 injuries really hurt. I am not a big Cassell fan so I don't think he was as big a loss. Orton was ok, but losing Charles was a huge loss and so was Berry. Each could make the claim as the best player on offense and defense. If you ever make the trip to Arrowhead, shout at me. I have 3 daughters so I don't go as much as I use to. The buddies and I still get out to a couple games a year.

GO DUKE!!!!

Not only is this team horrible defensively, they clearly have no point guard and they're a horrendous free-throw shooting team.  All things needed to make a run at a national championship and all trademarks of typical Duke basketball teams.  There are no given W's for this Duke team.  Austin Rivers is good, but he continues to make horrible decisions with the ball.  Seth Curry goes games without showing up at all, as does Dawkins who has the potential to be way more than a spot up shooter.  The Plumlee's have spots of defensive brilliance, but then take stupid risks and committ incredibly ridiculous fouls.  I still think that Quinn Cook should be the full time point guard for this team, because he's shown that he handles the ball best out of any one of Duke's guards.  I also think that Coach K needs to consider playing some zone defense given his defensive liabilities.  At this point, this team would need some serious favorable matchups to even get to a sweet 16 with the way they're playing.  This team is nothing like a prototypical Duke team.  Still tons of room for improvement.

I would never tell Coach K how to do his job, but I wonder why we havent played some zone. I think I saw it once when we were getting demolished by Ohio State. Our guards can not hang with the better guards in the NCAA, especially big guards. Quinn Cook is the best option at PG, but he is a serious liability on D.

I know this thread is about D, but I was heated watching the St. Johns game. Mason and Miles were DOMINATING St. Johns offensively and on the boards. We continued to settle for threes instead of running the offense through Mason and Miles. Mason was the reason we opened up the 22 point lead. Yet in the second half, the guards would not get him the ball. Mason works hard to get position in the post and all we want to do is jack up threes.

Even with all this said. This team has what it takes to get it done, they just need to stop with the dumb turnovers and play some D.

Erbeard - I've often wondered the same thing about going zone.   It would definitely force teams to beat us with the 3 instead of constantly beating us to the hoop.  I wish he would try it more too.  The main negative about zone, is that it makes rebounding more difficult and rebounding isn't exactly a strength of this team. 

I didn't see the st johns game but i've seen it all year, a good 31-32 mins, and a lackluster sloppy 9 mins.  We will lose by 20 at unc if we play at less than 100%. 

Completely agree with Devilfan822's post.

Would like to see them zone some teams...show them they can beat you from the outside, because we know that most talented teams with some athleticism will continue to beat the Duke defenders on a pretty consistent basis in man-to-man situations.

Would like to see some consistency with defensive fundamentals in general...pretty poor at blocking out and playing help defense, the latter a major issue with the number of blow buys that the Duke perimeter "D" suffers.  Plumlees can give you some spectacular individual highlight reel type "D" at times, but it's the steady every play fundamental effort that is more important - even though he was a bigger player, the Plumlees could look to Zoubek as a bit of an inspiration.

When healthy, would like to see Cook as their primary ballhandler...

Would like to see Mason Plumlee get a touch in almost every halfcourt offensive set...despite some of his well documented deficiencies, he is Duke's most dangerous player right now...as an aside, check out his FT% - shooting 64% over the last 8 games and 74% over the last 5 games...very good news for Duke if that trend continues.

Would like to see Rivers grow-up and wisen up...he's a coaches son, he should've known what a good decision is a long time ago.  I was willing to give him some time to get acclimated to the college game, but I continue to see a guy that is overconfident and not a good team player at all.  The guy has great skill, but these negatives weigh heavily on his overall play and by extension, that of the team.

There's still time to improve and get some things straightened out, but the players and the coaching staff (always tough to second-guess K as a fan, but this particular team does invoke legitimate calls for some zone "D" as much as any Duke team I've seen over the last 30+ years) have to be willing to change their mindsets and style somewhat before mid-March rolls around.

Asking Coach K to run some zone defense is like telling Ralph Lauren he doesn't know style and he should be more like Calvin Klein. Who is better at teaching man-to-man defense than Coach K? Geez, they only have 3 losses. The team that won the 2010 Title had FIVE losses. I sometimes scratch my head at why Duke doesn't zone. He maybe plays a zone one play every ten games. He's just not a zone type coach. And their zone is terrible. Have you seen it? They NEVER rebound well in zone and they tend to stand around. That's why Coach K sticks with man defense. But being young at almost every position makes for helping out tougher and tougher.  That's why the inside guys are looking better now. They are the seasoned veterans. The guards are all so young. Curry is a Junior and the best veteran they have. Once the guards get it(playing team defense) Duke will be sooooo much better. I look at them losing some more games this season but also losing Miles to graduation. If they can keep everyone else for next year you'll see what a season's maturity brings. I have by no means given up this season as they are just over half way. Duke will get better. There are about 8-15 teams better than them right now. But who knows how good they'll be come March.

douggie, I love the reference to this team and the 2010 in terms of losses. The two teams that you are comparing are different in many ways. Scheyer was the leader and that team knew it. Jon was a very smart player and looked to make his teammates better. 2010 had incredible leadership and the pieces to the puzzle fit by the end of the year. That is what I am hoping for here but with each passing game, I question it more and more. I think that is what all of us are stating in one way or another. We all have hope and pride in our boys. The problem is when I watch them, they don't seem to be learning from their mistakes. First and foremost, like Kelly said, the pride to destroy is an issue way too often. When you have a team buried, step on their throat and bury them even more! Don't become complacent and allow them to play you to a 7 point game! That is ridiculous!!!

Rivers is a top 2 player on this team in terms of talent but he isn't in any other aspect of the game. I wish he would read this board and then look in the mirror and say, "Self, you are to d@mn selfish". In order for us to go anywhere, his defense along with all the guards needs to elevate 3-4 notches! I wish Wojo would jump on the court, suit and all, and smack the floor with both hands.

The guards are not all so young?!? While we do have alot of youth there, we do sport 2 Juniors in Dawkins and Curry. What I see out of the guards is some distress between them. I honestly believe that a few of them are tired of Rivers and his selfishness. Curry misses a few shots and admittedly plays worse defense. He states his defense suffered because of his shot not falling. What the f is that about? That is not Duke Basketball!

I don't know if there is enough time in the season for this team to find its groove or if they even want to as a collective unit! That is my biggest fear with them as I believe they could be dangerous. I don't know if they want to be dangerous. If Kelly is questioning the pride this late in the season, I surely question it! I will state it again as I did in a previous post. This team is not playing as one and it is holding them back from being a team to be reckoned with. The only way for them to make a run is fix this and help each other reach the goal that they should be striving for.

By the way, I like the comment from Rivers about how they played too much one-on-one in the 2nd half against St. John's. He stated St. John's continued to play five-on-five. Well Rivers, wouldn't you say you are a big part of the problem. If not, you are helpless young man. For goodness sakes, play some darn defense! Please show me you know how to shut someone down, just for giggles.

100% agreed Kalaby and others, play Cook at the point. For those who say we don't have a true point guard, wrong. Cook is a true point guard and was recruited as such. He played the point in high school and he handles the ball very well. He can also score. Thornton is a true point guard also, in fact he is an old school point guard. He doesn't score much and his main objective is to set up the other 4 players on the court. Many PG's of the past did this and this only! He is such a threat to pass, that teams don't take him as as serious threat to score!