howard might actually make an all-star team again

with albert and prince gone

off the top of my head i think he's only gotten in twice cuz of this massive roadblock

Very true.  Also Howard contract is looking A LOT better now that AP signed for 10yrs 200plus and Fielder signed for 9yrs 200plus.  Yes Howard is making more then Fielder per year but we won't be burdened with a 9 or 10 yr contract.  I don't care what anyone says RAJ knows what he's doing.  

Too bad RAJ can't control injuries.  You never know how a 6'4" 240 pound player will respond to an ankle injury.  Maybe he'll come back 100%; maybe he won't.  If I was a Phillies fan I'd be holding my breath.  

Very true.  Also Howard contract is looking A LOT better now that AP signed for 10yrs 200plus and Fielder signed for 9yrs 200plus.  Yes Howard is making more then Fielder per year but we won't be burdened with a 9 or 10 yr contract.  I don't care what anyone says RAJ knows what he's doing.  

No it doesn't. 

Both of those players are significantly better than Ryan Howard, and neither of them is coming off of a major injury. That contract is indefensible, and anybody who think RAJ knew what he was doing with that contract needs their head examined. 

Yeah but they are sitting on 9 yr and 10 yr contracts of over 200m.  I know that you would be digging a grave for RAJ if he signed those players to that kinda contract.  I'll take the 5 yr over the 9-10yr any day.

 I know that you would be digging a grave for RAJ if he signed those players to that kinda contract.

This makes the contract to Howard defensible how?

  I'll take the 5 yr over the 9-10yr any day.

Hahahahaha. Yes, let's totally ignore the context in which it was signed. Howard had multiple years left on his deal, with 2 blue chip guys at the same position coming out the same year to hurt his leverage, and he massively overpaid anyways with a contract TAKING HOWARD TO THE SAME AGE FIELDER WILL BE WHEN HIS DEAL EXPIRES. 

So you'd rather have Howard with a blown achilles and a higher average annual value going to age 37 than Prince Fielder for a lower AAV, completely healthy and getting 3 more years of prime production(based upon his age) before his decline starts.

You're insane.  

Too bad RAJ can't control injuries.

No, but you can mitigate the risk they present by not offering a slugger a 5 year deal almost 3 years before he hits FA when he will be 32 years old. 

This is one of the biggest rasons that contract was an abortion.  

you can't take the signing of the contract out of context and then bring up the injury
the injury has ZERO to do with this discussion and you are insane for thinking it does

this was the first move of RAJ that i was not feeling... until now

what possible leverage would be gained if amaro waited til this year?
you think this guy could have been had for less then 7-8 years after these two monster contracts
there was PLENTY OF MONEY still available thru a bunch of teams even if you do consider prince better then howard

SURE the annual is a 3-5 mil more a year then you'd like...that's about 20 mil wasted let's say
HE TOOK THAT RISK in order to avoid a deal that went 3-5 years past his prime that could have costed 60 to 100 mil of wasted $$$

it blows my mind people (including many in the media) are still bashing this contract after this off season

you can't take the signing of the contract out of context and then bring up the injury

Then it is a good thing I am not. When you sign a guy like that the downiside from risk of injury explodes. In this case it blew up in our faces. You set a market you have no need to set, and you massively overpay. All of these things were apparent the day this contract was signed. 

 SURE the annual is a 3-5 mil more a year then you'd like...that's about 20 mil wasted let's say 
HE TOOK THAT RISK in order to avoid a deal that went 3-5 years past his prime that could have costed 60 to 100 mil of wasted $$$

What? How on Earth would signing Howard at a point where power hitters begin to decline mitigate risk of his value going up? 

what possible leverage would be gained if amaro waited til this year? 

Howard isn't as good as he was when he signed that contract, the market would have been saturated with slugging 1B and he's even less valuable now that he is injured. Not hard to figure out. 

 

even if you do consider prince better then howard

He is better than Howard... at least offensively. Post injury he might be better defensively too.
 

it blows my mind people (including many in the media) are still bashing this contract after this off season

It blows my mind there is a person on Earth that defends what is clearly an awful contract.  

you clearly don't understand this

massively overpay???

what they might have saved in $$$ per yer they would be eating in years with or without the injury if they waited

your entire whine session here assumes howard is breaking down and /or is done
and that's far from dtermined as this contract BEGINS

now if you want to cry about something which based on your posts is your favorite hobby
try the blanton contract

RAJ is not perfect, but he has a plan and he gets things done

that was where this thread was going

ONCE AGAIN, howards injury A) could not have been foreseen B) may not affect anything
and should not in anyway reflect the GMs affectiveness

As this argument is going back and forth with no one giving an inch it's time to go outside the Philly faithful for an objective opinion (presumably) on Howard's contract. Consensus seems to be that it rates among the Top Ten Worst Contracts. Here's what Joe Posnanski, senior columnist for Sports Illustrated and former columnist for the Kansas City Star has to say ( incidently he rates it the 4th worst contract among active players ):

The Ryan Howard deal is a looming disaster, and it hasn’t even started yet. He turns 32 in November, and players with his skill set sometimes take a precipitous fall in their early 30s. The truth is, with Howard, the decline started a while ago. For four years — from 2006 through 2009 — he crushed a lot of home runs. This fed his whole game. It gave him impressive RBI numbers. It sparked teams to intentionally walk him a lot, puffing up his on-base percentage. The last two years, though, his home runs have dropped, he didn’t even slug .500 in 2011, and managers have no longer feared him as much. His inability to hit lefties has become a defining quality. In this year’s playoffs the Cardinals intentionally walked the perfectly fine, but hardly intimidating, Hunter Pence in order to FACE Ryan Howard.

In the last game of the Cardinals-Phillies series, the announcers kept making a big deal about how St. Louis’ Chris Carpenter needed to get a succession of outs so that he would not have to face Ryan Howard in the ninth inning. Carpenter did not quite get those outs, and so the announcers went on and on about how this meant that Howard would come up one more time. There was no avoiding it, Mighty Casey would get one last at-bat. And all I could think of was that those words — Ryan Howard would get one more at-bat — would make me happier if I were a CARDINALS fan than a Phillies fans. Howard ended the game by hitting a routine ground ball, and he blew out his Achilles running to first base.

Howard has been a fun player, a marvelous slugger, the sort of player that Philadelphia could rally around, and there’s a lot of value in that. But he’s basically becoming a one-tool slugger who can’t hit lefties. That contract — even if Howard can somehow get (and stay) healthy, and regain his power — is like that Robert DeNiro attempt to bring Rocky and Bullwinkle to the big screen. Even before it begins, you know it has no chance.

Scott Campbell, journalist and blogger is even less kind ranking it behind only Jayson Werth's contract as the worst among active players saying:

 The slugger's power numbers have taken a noticeable plunge over the last two years, and that's an ominous sign with the five-year, $125 million extension he signed early in the 2010 season now set to kick in. Howard's struggles against lefties and defensive limitations have already made him a liability at times. But now that Howard, 32, is giving the Phillies less bang for the buck, literally, the back end of this deal looks downright ugly.

From CBS Sports...they rank it among the three worst along with Werth's and A-Rod's 10 year extension. here's what they had to say...and it ain't pretty:  

These contracts are the worst of the worst. It's almost like being a zombie stuck in a water well for weeks, then finally getting dragged out of the well only to split in half and spew its guts everywhere. In other words, fans of these teams have nothing but good things to look forward to.

Ryan Howard, Phillies
Contract: 5 years, $125 million, $25 million AAV. Remaining: This deal kicks in for 2012.

Howard was once a very, very good player that had his career held back due to the presence of Jim Thome in town. When he finally earned the right to play every day, he started mashing and just wouldn't stop. So what did GM Ruben Amaro do? Simple. He gave Ryan Howard one of the richest deals in baseball history... two full seasons before it was set to kick in. And what's happened in those two full years? Well, Howard's essentially become a platoon player who can't field and whose bat has slowed to the point where he can't be considered an elite first baseman anymore. And this is someone who will miss the beginning of 2012 thanks to an Achilles tear that could torpedo his career. His lucrative contract, which will leave him behind just Roger Clemens and Alex Rodriguez for the highest AAV in baseball history, is just beginning. By the way, he has a 2017 team option for $23 million that will hand him a whopping $10 million in a buyout.

Alex Rodriguez, Yankees
Contract: 10 years, $275 million $27.5 million AAV. $30 million due if he hits home-run milestones.Remaining: 6 years, $143 million (plus milestones)

There's no question Rodriguez has been a fantastic player, steroids or not, and he'll retire as one of the best players in the game of baseball. But his 10-year deal with the Yankees was silly when it was signed and it's even sillier now. Coming off what A-Rod called the worst season of his career, the Yankees are suddenly staring at $143 million over the next six years being given to a DH who is lucky if he can reach 30 home runs and 100 RBI. Rodriguez is simply not the same player he once was, and instead of being in his own class these days, he's now merely "very good." And you don't want "very good" from a player earning millions through age 42.

Jayson Werth, Nationals
Contract: 7 years, $126 million, $18 million AAV. Remaining: 6 years, $115.4 million

Here's one number to avoid in baseball: 126. That's exactly how much money (in millions, of course) Zito and Wells are receiving to be money drains for the club. And now Werth gets to be a money drain, and he still has so much more due to him after playing 2011 at $10.6 million. You can't blame Werth, who also (of course) has a no-trade clause, for accepting such a deal. It was obviously a gross overpayment that no one was going to match, but it's hard to envision what the Nats were thinking. Yes, they wanted to make a statement. But was someone set to play 2011 at age 32  with notable platoon splits really the man to make a splash with? The right fielder will likely bounce back from his .232/.330/.389 line set in his first year with Washington, but he will never justify this contract.

Both of those players are significantly better than Ryan Howard, and neither of them is coming off of a major injury. That contract is indefensible, and anybody who think RAJ knew what he was doing with that contract needs their head examined. 

There is a much better chance that Howard will be relatively healthy (though you have to expect a few injuries, as you would any ball player) throughout his contract, than AP or Prince will be throughout theirs.  Pujols has a contract until he is in his 40's, and we've been seeing him have elbow problems the past couple of seasons, and they might be getting progressively worse.  Howard isn't an exact testament to physical conditioning, but Prince has a smaller frame and has an extra 35-40 lbs on Howard.  That guy is going to break down within 3-4 years, and the Tigers will be on the hook for another half decade at the least. 

bottom line howard's deal is the least of the 3 evils
and for the phils i believe it was a necessary one

another point here that has not been touched on
howard was drastically underpaid for virtually his entire career here
some of this money goes to him in consideration of that when signing a homegrown player

howard was drastically underpaid for virtually his entire career here
some of this money goes to him in consideration of that when signing a homegrown player

So has Jimmy, so has Chase, so has Victorino and Hamels. None of them have nearly the swiss bank account contracts Howard has. In fact, just about any homegrown player who turns out to be good gives you 3-4 years of production where he is massive underpaid. That's one of the major reason Ruben should not be pillaging our farm system he way he seems to enjoy doing.  

 and for the phils i believe it was a necessary one

I've yet to hear a single legitimate reason for why this is....

If RAJ had waited he'd have been able to re-sign Howard for a heck of a lot less than did.  

That guy is going to break down within 3-4 years, and the Tigers will be on the hook for another half decade at the least.  

Howard just broke down, he had a MAJOR injury. A torn Achilles is one of the worst injuries you can suffer as an athlete.... and we have him for just shy of half a decade.

 Howard isn't an exact testament to physical conditioning, 

I'd actually disagree witht this, he's worked very hard both to shed some fat and become a ML level fielder. At least he was pre-injury. 

 

if RAJ had waited he'd have been able to re-sign Howard for a heck of a lot less than did. 

and for 3-4 more years

I've yet to hear a single legitimate reason for why this is....

at what point is trying to save 5-10-20 million dollars over 5 years worth breaking up the core of a championship level team?
no matter what your beef is with howard...he's still an elite force that does not come along often...because he has made the last out of the last two playoffs does not somehow knock him down to rico brogna level...the numbers are there year after year

RAJ somehow saw these monster contracts (in years) for 1st basemen coming and undercut it beautifully

if you can't see that then you don't want to see it

So has Jimmy, so has Chase, so has Victorino and Hamels. None of them have nearly the swiss bank account contracts Howard has. In fact, just about any homegrown player who turns out to be good gives you 3-4 years of production where he is massive underpaid. That's one of the major reason Ruben should not be pillaging our farm system he way he seems to enjoy doing. 

wow where to begin

jimmy and chase...i think we've broken even with them over the years

victorino has had FA chances and CHOSE to sign LOW - he'll be gone next time around anyway

hamels will be up there with howard soon enough

our farm system has not let us down yet and will surely become more and more important as the years pass - and the success continues
you got to pick your battles RAJ has put a premium on SPs and position players...that's what you must appreciate - how he puts it together every year without letting the product suffer

and for 3-4 more years

You think anybody is giving Ryan Howard an 8 year deal with a torn achilles? Stop, just stop. Prine'c contract went so long because it takes him to the same age as Howard's.

Pujols is the best hitter of the generation. You're comparing apples and oranges.  

 RAJ somehow saw these monster contracts (in years) for 1st basemen coming and undercut it beautifully 

By paying Ryan Howard more money per year than Fielder? He didn't undercut anything. Pujols got more money because he is a much, much better player. Not because Ruben undercut him.

 if you can't see that then you don't want to see it

I can't see it because it isn't true. You're a clueless homer who wants to live with your head in the sand.  

 at what point is trying to save 5-10-20 million dollars over 5 years worth breaking up the core of a championship level team?

You do realize nothing would have changed the past 3 years without that contract right? Howard wouldn't have beena  FA until this year. It would not have broken up anything. 

 no matter what your beef is with howard...he's still an elite force that does not come along often...because he has made the last out of the last two playoffs does not somehow knock him down to rico brogna level...the numbers are there year after year

He's a top 10 1B at this point. Nothing more, nothing less.  He's not an elite force any more, and that is ok because he is still a good player. He is getting paid like a top 5 1B, and he is't really close to that level right now. 

have fun rooting against howard and the phils this year

you continue to ignore the fact i am complimenting RAJ's stratagy which has nothing to do with the injury and if you are under the delusion that howard would have signed a 4yr/80 mil contract after the albert and price deals then yes - you can't be wrong

reality is that would not have happened under any circumstances even with the injury- do you know why? - cuz there would be other teams bidding him up both salary and duration - you have no idea how to calculate that other then analyze the current market - and the current market was putting him as the 3rd best available (a close 3rd) which put him at a 8/180 7/160 range - which is significany "WORSE" then what he signed with us for

so if you actually did want to retain him - which i did - this is a GOOD THING

instead of rehashing your same pig headed statements, try reading perhaps you might start making sense

You do realize nothing would have changed the past 3 years without that contract right? Howard wouldn't have beena  FA until this year. It would not have broken up anything.

this was referring about the 5 years of his new contract - 2012 - 2016 - wow this is all so over your head

after this brilliant exchange it is obvious why the majority of this board has given up engaging with you

its all you "phan"

copy and paste everything you said above

Cowbuc, I know we haven't gotten along much on these board or let me rephrase that, we haven't agreed much on here however we are 110% on the same page with this discussion.  Another person who know his baseball who agrees with us is Larry Bowa (ps I got his phone number from a friend and have been texting him, he's actually a real good guy.  I also got Brian Cashman's number too...which is going to make the trade deadline FUNNNNN).  He was on MLB network with some others saying that the Phillies are making out on this contract if he continues to put up .270 w/ 30plus hrs and 100plus RBIs.