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OneEyedPaul- I love the discussion of top ten etc lists. But I agree it is all so subjective. I believe though when someone puts up a list, it sort of gives others a window into with that person feels “important” in terms of basketball.
For example, if someone were to put Kobe 1,2 , 3 or 4, there is a good chance they either love scoring, not old enough to watch some of the old-timers, or are a Laker or a big Kobe fan. A nickname for them is to call them “a Kobe Kid.” Not all cases, but many.
As for my top 4, I have them in that order for the following reasons. I have Jordan 1, because I never saw him get outplayed at his position of either 2guard or sf in the playoffs. With Wilt, I take a look at is stats and see a HUGE decline in effectiveness in the playoffs. I was a bit too young to see their battles other than one – and Russell came out on top. I thought Wilt’s effectiveness declined in the playoffs and in particular vs. Russell. His issues with his coaches etc- so I put Russell slightly ahead. So it comes down to where do I put Jabbar? I did see him a lot even when he was young and loved his greatness.
But – I did see him get outplayed by Moses Malone. Though he was old. My “tie-breaker” is that in 71-72, at 24 going on 25, he shot 57.4 percent during the reg. Season. H w does he shoot 43.7 percent in the playoffs? I believe it was the defense of 35 yo going on 36 yo Wilt. It could have been Thurmond in the prior round I just don’t know. Anyhow, unless someone can provide some credible stats, it appears old man DPOY Wilt of 71-72 basically shutdown a young Jabbar. I can’t imagine anyone ever doing that to Jordan in his youth. Add that to him being outplayed by Moses while having Magic as a teammate and losing a series he had no business losing, I can’t put him ahead of Jordan. And if he struggled vs Old Man Wilt, I can’t put him ahead of Russell or Wilt either. But if I found out it was Thurmond who frustrated him, and if he crushed Wilt, I’d consider putting him as high as 2.
I have Jordan the best because of a few factors. One is that I never saw him get outplayed in a playoff series at his position or at the other wing. Of course one game or two, but I’m talking a series. Secondly, he has the highest scoring average in NBA History counting reg season and playoffs. Only Wilt and Jabbar have arguments as greatest scorer other than Jordan. But to add to that, I believe Jordan was the greatest defender at the 1-3 positions I’ve ever seen. Now I believe Russell is among the greatest defenders ever, But you put both offense and defense, I give the edge to Jordan.
By the way, I hated Jordan and still do.
topten,
It's so difficult to assess players from one era to the next and from one team to another. You make a good point about player's playoff and head-to-head performances, but even those results can be skewed based on era, team and circumstantial elements. Also, I think some of the old-era players don't get enough credit in most modern lists. I'll always remember that, even during the Kareem/Magic era, Chick Hearns (the Lakers long-time announcer, but I'm sure you know this) often insisted that Baylor was the best player he'd ever seen.
Also, I often think that the centers receive so much attention, sometimes more than they deserve. Because they're typically the tallest, last line of defense, and a team's primary rebounder, perhaps that's why we focus on them so much.
Wilt, like today's Lebron, was a freak of nature and stood out from the rest. But his head-to-head failures against Russell and inability to take his teams to a championship hurt his historical value. I guess the same can be said for Lebron though he still has time to redeem himself.
I don't know how Russell fits into today's league that emphasizes scoring over defense so much. And though Russell's defensive numbers were unreal, he played in an era where centers were allowed to camp out in the paint and physically stop players going to the rim. Still, his leaping ability and sound positioning would have him as the cornerstone to a great defensive team. I would have loved to see him and Kareem square off against one another.
What's your list look like if broken down by position?
It's so difficult to assess players from one era to the next and from one team to another. You make a good point about player's playoff and head-to-head performances, but even those results can be skewed based on era, team and circumstantial elements.
OneEyedPaul, I agree! It’s the best I can think of. There are even disputes as to who “the player of the game” can be. Never mind era-over-era.
So for players like Russell – in the 60’s and 70’s I don’t believe they got the coaching the current players get, so they weren’t / aren’t as polished. I believe a characteristic of Russell was his adaptability. Before he got to NBA, “defense wins” was not a motto. They also do show on a YouTube video I which Russell runs down Jerry West on a breakaway to block his shot. Russell was considered at his time one of the world’s best high jumpers. He was either an Olympian, or close to being one. At 6’10 with has smarts, adaptability, he was a very good passer, and for his era, his fg percentage wasn’t that bad, I have to assume he’d still be that supreme athlete in today’s environment with the way coaching and nutrition and training now is spread to many young kids. Give Russell that same training, he’s “Rodman” defensively only bit taller with longer arms and a much, much, much, much., much better offensive player. One year Russell led his team in scoring in the playoffs as they won the title. PLUS he was one of their top passers. Nor will he go off the wall like Rodman. IMO his game would transcend in any era with decent coaching, training and nutrition.
What's your list look like if broken down by position?
What’s yours?
In order:
PG 1-Magic, 2-Oscar, 3-Isiah, 4-Frazier, 5-Stockton (Honorable mention 6-Payton)
SG 1- Jordan, 2- Kobe- 3- West, 4- Hondo (I consider him a 2/3 some will say he was just really a 3) 5- Gervin (Honorable mention – Wade. A few more years Wade will keep climbing. This Heat team has no business not winning this year. Also honorable mention Drexler)
SF 1- Bird, 2- Dr. J, 3- Hondo, 4- Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor is in here. Not sure where. 6- Pippen 7- LeBron. For LeBron, I believe I have to see that his game doesn’t get shutdown in the playoffs as much as it has. In 08-09 he was awesome though he lost. In 09-10 Celts shut him down. Last year Mavs shut him down. I don’t hold it against him in 06-07 going against Spurs. But just: “show me LeBron.” We are talking all-time great here. I don’t beelive he can be top 5 if he gets shutdown as often as he does in playoffs.
PF 1-Duncan, 2-Karl Malone, 3-4 tie Dirk and Garnett, 5-6 tie McHale and Elvin Hayes, 7- Barkley. I have Barkley this low because he got destroyed vs. McHale. I think Hayes would have whipped him too. I think he was a bad defender. I believe he blew his end-of-game defensive assignment in 92-93 Game 6 title game. And I believe in 94-95 he may have cost his team a title with his end-of-game ball-hogging and arrogance.
c- 1-Russell, 2- Wilt, 3- Jabbar, 4- Shaq, 5- Hakeem, 6 Moses, 7- Robinson, Numbers 8-10 I believe in order are Reed, Ewing and Cowens. I’ll take Ewing’s career, but in a big game, I’ll take Cowens or Reed. Ewing really “felt pressure” like LeBron does.
