Let's play rank the all stars 1-24

Here's the list, rank 1-24 based on what you think, regardless of position or team.  Base it on YTD or the guy you think today that would be more beneficial (not quite life to date, but say if someone like Amare Stoudemire had made the team after a rough start, rate on how you still think he may do the next 30 games or playoffs as a factor--don't say what he may do in a few years, but this full year),  don't base it though on careers....today or this season future impact only.

Then rate in order your 5 biggest snubs and why

East
Derrick Rose
Dwyane Wade
LeBron James
Carmelo Anthony
Dwight Howard

East Reserves
Joe Johnson
Deron Williams
Andre Iguodala
Roy Hibbert
Luol Deng
Chris Bosh
Paul Pierce


West
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Andrew Bynum

West Reserves
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki
Russell Westbrook
LaMarcus Aldridge
Kevin Love
Marc Gasol
Tony Parker

Now have at it.

Here's my rankings:

1. LeBron James.  Sure he hasn't won (yet) and I hope he never wins cuz he's a punk -arsed b.  But so be it, the dude is as unstoppable a force as MJ was, and basketball is a team sport (despite the fact that the media would have you think otherwise at times).  Lebron's as dangerous as any without any real weaknesses (sure he's a streaky distance shooter and sure he isn't as good in the half court defensively, but he's not bad either and is absolutely great elsewhere).

2. Derrick Rose.  Rose keeps getting better and better, he's got great vision, he's the fastest player in the league (or right there with Westbrook, but because he's got better passing skills/vision and a better jumper and at least that same speed if not more, he gets that edge).  He's developed into a solid defender, and he's more of a passing PG when he needs to be than we thought.  He's right there.

3. Kevin Durant.  Man it's tough to not have him #1 or #2 as his height is a huge advantage and he's virtually unguardable, he's rebounding quite a bit, and he's improved defensively as well.  I wouldn't complain with any of these 3 being in different orders, but this is my vote, so here it goes.

4. Dwight Howard.  I know not yet at Kobe despite his top 3 playing so far this year, but if I'm picking a team, I'm picking Howard first today and the rest of this year....Howard's a beast, and on an otherwise godawful team.  He's the best defender in the game, and has developed his O skills so that they are almost all star quality on that end. 

5. Kobe Bryant.  He's moved back into the top 5 discussion, after I thought he fell towards 10th or so for this year.  He's been the best bball player since Michael Jordan, and the fact that he's still doing it, and still possibly capable of winning the MVP is something.  He could actually break Kareem's scoring record...can he play 5 more years at near this level?  Possibly, or can he play 7 more years with 3 at this level and 4 a step down but still good to great?  Possibly, he'd be 38-40 in those 2 scenarios.  Kareem played until he was 41 taking perhaps more abuse playing inside....stranger things have happened.  Kobe's moving into the top 5 players to ever suit up category if he keeps this up.....this isn't lifetime, this is today and I have him at #5.

6. Dwyane Wade.  He like the others could catapult to #1, he's been hurt a bit htis year, so it's hard to tell , but I may even want him on my team over Lebron still today (not tomorrow, that 3 year age difference is huge).  Like I said at Durant, picking between really these 6 is not easy, this is how i see it right now and short term future.  Wade may end up being the closer in the finals though, and that could vault him to the top.  I sure hope my Bulls stop that though :).

7. Chris Paul.  A great PG, a great competitor but not quite to the level of the 6 above him, though clearly 7th in my book.

8. Russell Westbrook.  Man he gets a lot of grief in OKC.  THe team is awesome and he's as big a part of it as Durant.  THe issue that OKC has is that well for one Kendrick Perkins is completely overrated garbage, and he should keep his mouth shut shouting out about Lebron talking to his fans about Blake's ridiculously awesome block.....Perkins wouldn't be where he's at at all if it wasn't for Garnett and if it wasn't for the big 3.  OKC's issues is post scoring first, second third, and yet they still are a top 1-4 favorite to win the whole thing.  Lay off Westbrook.  He's pretty awesome.

9. LaMarcus Aldridge.  The best 2 way PF in the gaem right now, and get this he probably was the same last year too.  He's the guy keeping the Trailblazers afloat, and he's really surpassed even the most lofty expectations on him entering the league.  He's the still most underrated all star.

10. Dirk Nowitzki.  He's the first guy on here this high because I still think he can be extremely dangerous in the future this season.  He's been great his whole career and will have a better second half and playoffs.....he's a lock HoFer and I think given how great he still was last season esp down the stretch, we'll see that Dirk again this year, or even slightly less (if we see that Dirk again this year he can move into the top 3-6 discussion).

11. Kevin Love dude rebounds everything in sight, he can play inside and outside and he's starting to improve defensively (but has a ways to go to be an elite defender). If he improves there, which he could, he vaults up.  I am shocked Minny didn't lock him up for 5 years...

12. Steve Nash.  Can still do it all, is shooting incredibly and is really the only piece (or him with Gortat) to make the Suns even remotely competitive.  I know his team isn't going to do anything, but if he gets traded....who knows.

13. Blake Griffin  THis isn't next year future all star (At which point he could emerge as a top 1-5 player with his mix of athleticism, post play, and impossible to defend in the post).  But his D is lacking and he can't shoot yet and shoots a lot of jumpers.  Still #13 isn't much to sniff at.

14. Deron Williams.  I've personally never liked him for some reason--going back to his Illini days, but that has nothing on how good he is, and he is good, a tough PG, physical PG and good passing PG.  Not the best defender, but what PG really is given there's no hand checking.  He's good, just not as good a PG as those above--and he's the most prima donna of 'em, but securely a top 5 PG.  And this is the prime time for point guards in NBA history. 

15.  Paul Pierce.  He started off awfully this year, but has come on and reminded folks he's an all star and a future HoFer for a reason.  I still hate the Scowl, but his game is good/fun to watch.  He just plays moody.

16. Chris Bosh. Bosh isn't my 16th best player in the league. I'd probably pick a few of my snubbees ahead of him, though some of them haven't deserved really to make it and Bosh has.  Still he's probably a top 20 player, which is good.  I see him as a great #2 man playing a #3 man's role, not bad to have in that capacity, but he's under utilized.

17. Carmelo Anthony.  He has the raw talent to be a top 5 player, but not the desire to improve defensively at all. He's basically a more frustrating version of the prime Tracey McGrady, in that he's not as good offensively as McGrady was, he has the tools to be more defensively (size, height) than McGrady did, but he won't ever be at TMac's prime level yet has the talent to do so.....

18. Andrew Bynum. A legit back to the basket C.  And he's finally healthy and very good.

19. Tony Parker.  He just keeps playing along, he's historically a top all time PG kind of player (not #1, but top maybe 15-20 PG ever) and yet he's what #6 here because the PG spot is so ridiculous.  He's good, great at getting easy buckets in the post, still very quick, still very good, still not a top defender, but not bad and he's improved.  Course if he keeps having these 35-45 and 10+ assist games he'll vault up further. 

20. Andre Iguodala slight edge over #21 because he's more athletic and a much better passer.

21. Luol Deng.  Long been a fringe all star if everything goes right, he finally made it. He's playing the best ball of his career, and is the league leader in adjusted +/- which is even more impressive when he's doing it averaging 38 MPG.  He's like hte Mario 2 version of Mario from that NES game, good at everything, great at nothing and always consistent.  Funny thing is I don't know if the second half of the year, Deng, Joakim Noah or Carlos Boozer will be the second best Bull....they're all right there.

22. Marc Gasol.  Another tried and true classic big man, which is rare, and he's a darn good one and getting better.  Still would take his brother over him, but oh well Marc deserves this spot for the YTD play so far.

23. Joe Johnson.  He's fairly consistent too, and good, very good.  Overpaid, yes.  Bad? Hell no.  Just not great.  Josh Smith deserved his spot though, I'll say that.  Smith didn't get in I think because he doesn't have a high bbal IQ and as such you can take him out of his game and make him hurt the Hawks.  Johnson doesn't hurt the Hawks with mental bball IQ issues, he can hurt them when he's not shooting well, but he is a 2 way player at times.  Good, and he's GREAT in the clutch.

24. Roy Hibbert.  Not ragging on him, he deserved this spot, good for him.  He'll get even better in time.  Good for him.  He's a deserving all star.

Top 5 in order Snubs
1. Josh Smith (see #23 above).  He's been the best Hawk, even if sometimes he's the Hawk that can make what could have been a win turn into a loss wiht his bad bball IQ.  He's doing that less than ever this year, and if any Hawk made it he should have made it.  Hell I'd have started him at the PF spot.

2. Pau Gasol.  As I said I'd still pick him over his brother, but for this all star period I'd have voted his brother (I'd pick Gasol over Josh Smith for the rest of this year too, but Smith was more deserving of all star based on the games played already.

3. Kyrie Irving.  The Cavs are almost competitive again and he's a big piece.  Anderson Varejao deserves some love too (but I'd still take say a Joakim Noah over Varejao, but V's been nice for the Cavs).

4. Monta Ellis.  Dude's pretty electric when he's on...and he's been playing great for years.  He's a fringe all star player but I thought could have made it this year.

5. Greg Monroe.  Yes Big B, I'll give your team's 1 player some credit.


IN THE END I think the all star selections were fair.  Paul Millsap is the biggest snub left off of my snubs, Joakim Noah, Carlos Boozer, Rajon Rondo, Rudy Gay, Tim Duncan, Danilo Gallinari, Nene, Brandon Jennings, Tyson Chandlers are the best of the fringe all stars not mentioned (Rondo would hav ebeen an all star if he didn't get injured).  Spencer Hawes, James Harden, might move closer into this discussion soon.

A good all star class though in the end.

Here's how I would pick them based on how they've actually performed this season.  Some of the numbers are pretty unbelievable.

24. Luol Deng, SF, Chicago Bulls (21 Games, 16.2 PER, 106 Offensive Rating, 98 Defensive Rating) - Has always been a good glue guy, isn't necessarily an All Star.  Really good player though.

23. Joe Johnson, SG, Atlanta Hawks (26 Games, 18.1 PER, 108 Offensive Rating, 103 Defensive Rating) - Interesting selection.  I'm sure the coaches put him in there because of his name but he's actually been down the past couple of seasons.

22. Andre Iguodala, SF, Philadelphia 76ers (26 Games, 18.8 PER, 108 Offensive Rating, 94 Defensive Rating) - Iguodala's been great for Philadelphia this season and though his numbers aren't sexy, he's probably the best perimeter defender in the game.

21. Dirk Nowitzki, PF, Dallas Mavericks (22 Games, 19.2 PER, 107 Offensive Rating, 100 Defensive Rating) - Dirk's had a really down year and his selection will (and should) get the most criticism amongst the talking heads this All Star Break.

20. Marc Gasol, C, Memphis Grizzlies (26 Games, 19.3 PER, 111 Offensive Rating, 96 Defensive Rating) - Gasol's had a really good year.  7 footers are rare in the league and 7 footers who are playing well will fill out the roster.

19. Roy Hibbert, C, Indiana Pacers (25 Games, 19.5 PER, 103 Offensive Rating, 96 Defensive Rating) - I give Hibbert the nod over Hibbert because Hibbert is a big part of Indiana's offense (where Gasol kind of gets by on minimal looks).  Hibbert's worked really hard on his game and it has showed this season.

18. Chris Bosh, PF, Miami Heat (26 Games, 19.7 PER, 111 Offensive Rating, 100 Defensive Rating) - Bosh got off to a hot start and, if Wade hadn't come back, his numbers would have been better.  He's tailed off lately but he's deserving of his spot.

17. Deron Williams, PG, New Jersey Nets (26 Games, 20.0 PER, 106 Offensive Rating, 114 Defensive Rating) - Williams has had a really good year putting up numbers for a bad New Jersey team.  He hasn't been great (he's been awful on defense), but he deserves his spot as well.

16. Carmelo Anthony, SF, New York Knicks (22 Games, 20.3 PER, 102 Offensive Rating, 102 Defensive Rating) - Anthony's selection as a starter is the one move that the fans failed on.  In all honesty, he hasn't played well and he's been gimpy this season as well.

15. Paul Pierce, SF, Boston Celtics (22 Games, 20.8 PER, 107 Offensive Rating, 97 Defensive Rating) - Pierce has come on big time here as of late and is worth his selection into the game.  He's getting long in the tooth but I'd still take him on my team as a finisher.

14. Tony Parker, PG, San Antonio Spurs (27 Games, 21.9 PER, 109 Offensive Rating, 105 Defensive Rating) - Given the injury to Manu Ginobili and the minute management of Tim Duncan, Parker's taken on a huge load and has responded well for San Antonio.  I wonder if he'll be able to keep it up but he definitely deserves it.

13. Russell Westbrook, PG, Oklahoma City Thunder (26 Games, 22.6 PER, 103 Offensive Rating, 103 Defensive Rating) - Aside from Westbrook's turnovers and shot selection (two really big things, mind you), he's been great this year.  I still don't trust him closing out games but there's no doubt he's a top player in the game.

12. Andrew Bynum, C, Los Angeles Lakers (22 Games, 22.7 PER, 108 Offensive Rating, 96 Defensive Rating) - Bynum has quietly (due to Kobe's numbers) had a fantastic season at the C spot for the Lakers.  Whether you think he deserves more looks or not is another topic of conversation but Bynum is worthy of his starting center nod.

11. Blake Griffin, PF, Los Angeles Clippers (23 Games, 22.9 PER, 108 Offensive Rating, 104 Defensive Rating) - Blake hasn't been as explosive this season as he was last season (sorry Kendrick Perkins) but he's been good this year for the Clippers.  Deserved his spot last year; deserves it this year.

10. LaMarcus Aldridge, PF, Portland Trail Blazers (26 Games, 23.9 PER, 112 Offensive Rating, 99 Defensive Rating) - Aldridge has been terrific all year long and I'm glad the coaches recognized it.  Portland no longer has a great team around him but he's doing it all this year to keep the team afloat.

9. Steve Nash, PG, Phoenix Suns (24 Games, 24.1 PER, 119 Offensive Rating, 110 Defensive Rating) - Nash's had a resurgence of sorts this season for Phoenix and has kept that otherwise bad team competitive.  He'll be attractive trade bait at the deadline.

8. Dwyane Wade, SG, Miami Heat (17 Games, 25.4 PER, 109 Offensive Rating, 99 Defensive Rating) - Wade's had injury problems and that's why I put him so low on this list.  Even still, he's an explosive player when on the court but I imagine that'll be less and less frequent as the years go on.

7. Kevin Love, PF, Minnesota Timberwolves (24 Games, 25.4 PER, 117 Offensive Rating, 99 Defensive Rating) - Going by PER, Love deserves a top 4 ranking in this list.  That's insane.  I won't give him that because all the players above him are more proven, but Love's numbers have been terrific for a few years now. 

6. Derrick Rose, PG, Chicago Bulls (23 Games, 25.0 PER, 116 Offensive Rating, 101 Defensive Rating) - The reigning MVP has been bothered by toe and back problems this year but has still been the straw that stirs the drink in Chicago.  They're probably the most complete team in the league and he's the reason why.

5. Kobe Bryant, SG, Los Angeles Lakers (26 Games, 25.3 PER, 107 Offensive Rating, 102 Defensive Rating) - Kobe's had a great start to the year in Mike Brown's "offense" but I wonder if his body can keep up over time.  Even still, although he's not as lethal in crunch time as he's normally been, I don't want to face him with the game on the line.  Kobe's worked really hard to keep his body in great shape this year.

4. Dwight Howard, C, Orlando Magic (26 Games, 25.4 PER, 106 Offensive Rating, 92 Defensive Rating) - Imagine if Howard cared about basketball this season.  He pretty much just coasts through games, gets double-double's and dominates the paint.  He's the best defensive player in the game (routinely making Orlando a top notch defense with horrible defensive talent around him) and has done so while wanting to be anywhere but with the Magic.  If he gets traded to a contender this year then watch out.

3. Chris Paul, PG, Los Angeles Clippers (18 Games, 26.0 PER, 125 Offensive Rating, 105 Defensive Rating) - Paul's actually had a magnificent year and it's gone under the radar for the Clippers (if that's possible).  He gets a lot of flack for what he can't do but Paul maximizes what he can do and has been an efficient offensive player everywhere he's been.  The numbers speak for themselves.  Look what he's done to save two different franchises now (although he may have killed one also) since he's come into the league.  Paul deserves a lot more credit than he even gets now.

2. Kevin Durant, SG, Oklahoma City Thunder (26 Games, 26.4 PER, 111 Offensive Rating, 100 Defensive Rating) - Durant's been unstoppable all season long and if Westbrook and he could develop any late game routine, they'd be great.  His free throw attempts have been down this season now that the league is no longer falling for his little "throw the hands into the defender" trick, but that hasn't stopped his offensive game at all.  He's been balling.

1. LeBron James, SF, Miami Heat (25 Games, 31.8 PER, 117 Offensive Rating, 98 Defensive Rating) - Everyone's favorite punching bag is having a year even better than his 2008/2009 season.  It's unreal how good LeBron's been this year (especially when you look at his rebounding and assist numbers).  The Heat have actually shined without Wade in the lineup and LeBron's been the focal point of the offense even when Wade gets back in there.  Say what you want about him (and everyone will), LeBron is undoubtedly the best player in the game.

Great post GoHornets, some disagreements, but nothing too major in the end. I liked your insights.

Any snubbees you wanted to mention?

All in all, I think the fans got it right this year.  I mean, if I did have to reach in and pull some players out, Dirk Nowitzki, Deron Williams and Luol Deng would be the guys I would replace and I would replace them with Kyrie Irving, Paul Millsap and Josh Smith.  But I know why the players that did get picked got picked.  Nowitzki did win the Finals MVP last year so it makes sense that the coaches put him in.  Kind of like how Tim Duncan would get in (a career achievement type selection).  And you can make arguments for Deng over Smitih and Williams over Irving.  For the first time in a few years, I think everyone pretty much got it right.

1. LeBron James -  Easily the Best player in the NBA
2. Dwight Howard - Easily the Best C in NBA 
3. Kevin Durant - Best foward not named Lebron James
4. Chris Paul - Easily the Best PG in NBA 
5. Derrick Rose -  Best PG in the East
6. Kevin Love 
7. Kobe Bryant
8. D-Wade
9. LaMarcus Aldridge
10. Blake Griffin

thats my top 10

Also Carmelo has been pretty average this year. He doesn't deserve to start the all star game and he's probably not even deserving of a bench spot IMO. 

 

LeBron James-best player in the game according to Bird and a lot of folks.
Dwight Howard-Best center in the game without question.
Kevin Durant-I like Durant in clutch situations. 3 pointer vs Mavs was great this year.
Kobe Bryant-lead the league in scoring last time I checked.
CP3-Best point guard in the game for a while in my opinion when healthy. He is the complete point guard who can pass, play D, and score.
Rose-no disrespect intended to Rose.
Wade-I have no idea the #s he is putting up, but I hear they are all career lows.
I don't know the rest cuz Dirk isn't having a great season. Couldn't tell you how I would rank the rest.

LOVE THIS

1. LeBron James






2. Chris Paul
3. Dwight Howard
4. Kevin Durant
5. Derrick Rose
6. Blake Griffin
7. Russell Westbrook
8. Dwyane Wade
9. Kevin Love
10. Andre Iguodala
11. Andrew Bynum
12. LaMarcus Aldridge
13. Paul Pierce
14. Luol Deng
15. Kobe Bryant
16. Dirk Nowtizki
17. Tony Parker
18. Steve Nash
19. Roy Hibbert
20. Chris Bosh
21. Marc Gasol
22. Joe Johnson
23. Deron Williams
24. Carmelo Anthony

I pretty much don't give a damn where you put my boy Carmelo, but you CANNOT have him behind Deron Williams. At least Melo has been injured. Deron has been an absolute joke this season without an excuse. If nothing else, at least Melo is out there trying when he's out there.

Sick list Go. I'm not sure I disagree with any of your top 16 and the order you put them in.

I pretty much don't give a damn where you put my boy Carmelo, but you CANNOT have him behind Deron Williams. At least Melo has been injured. Deron has been an absolute joke this season without an excuse. If nothing else, at least Melo is out there trying when he's out there.

Considering the Knicks are 3-1 without Melo and 10-12 with him in the lineup, he does not deserve to be an All Star.  I don't care what his individual stats are or how hard he tries.  He needs to learn how to play basketball.  Now that the team has a viable point guard, Melo better stop his ball stopping ways or D'Antoni needs to sack up and put Melo and his big contract on the bench.


As far as Williams vs. Melo, you could probably rank Melo ahead of Williams but that should be on a rank of guys who are NOT All Stars.  The difference would be that with Melo you have a guy who tries hard (as you allude to) but does not really know what the heck he is doing.  With Williams you have a guy who knows how to play but who's heart is not in it.

On a related note, it is funny how Williams can go for 20 pts and 8 assists on an 8-20 team and get an All Star nod, while Monta Ellis can go for 22 pts and 6 assists on a 9-14 squad and not get the nod.  Apparently because Williams has made it for a few seasons in a row, they just "grandfather" him in and he makes it even if his team can't win a game.  Him and fellow grandfather Carmelo Anthony can basically be penciled in for the next 5 seasons no matter whether they ever learn how to play (Anthony) or give a damn (Williams) and no matter how many wins their teams get.

Dirk's had a really down year and his selection will (and should) get the most criticism amongst the talking heads this All Star Break.

I think the selection of Dirk showed that the fans are not that bad when selecting AS. How in the world did coaches honestly look at Dirk play this year and say he's an all star?

Even Dirk said he's not an All Star.

His free throw attempts have been down this season now that the league is no longer falling for his little "throw the hands into the defender" trick

I believe this was one of the moves the officials targeted in the off-season as something they were not going to let anyone get away with.  Kobe likes to do that too and I have seen a bunch of games this year where Kobe tried to get the foul called doing this and there was no whistle (to Kobe's chagrin).

All in all, I think the fans got it right this year.  I mean, if I did have to reach in and pull some players out, Dirk Nowitzki, Deron Williams and Luol Deng would be the guys I would replace and I would replace them with Kyrie Irving, Paul Millsap and Josh Smith.

Agreed.

As much as I am happy to see Luol Deng finally make it on the team, I think Josh Smith should have gone ahead of him. However, I think Josh Smith should replace Joe Johnson. Johnson is clearly just an overpaid jump shooter and if a player from the Hawks is going to be in the Allstar game then it should be josh smith.

I guess this would be my East reserves:

Rajon Rondo
Andre Iluodala
Roy Hibbert
Chris Bosh
Josh Smith
Greg Monroe
Paul Pierce

My West reserves would be:

Russell Westbrook
LaMarcus Aldridge
Kevin Love
Paul Milsap
Tony Parker
Marc Gasol
Steve Nash

Sick list Go. I'm not sure I disagree with any of your top 16 and the order you put them in.

Where've you been this season?  I hope Linsanity brings you back to the boards.

In what parallel dimension is Derrick Rose the starter over Jeremy Lin!

                                  
                                                     1   LeBron James

                                                     2 Dwight Howard

                                                     3 Kevin Durant
                                                        
                                                      4 Derrick Rose
                               
                                                     5  Kobe Bryant

                                                     6 Kevin Love

                                                     7 Dwyane Wade
                                                         
                                                     8  Chris Paul
                                                     
                                                     9  Blake Griffin
                                                   
                                                     10 Russell Westbrook

                                                     11  LaMarcus Aldridge

                                                     12 Deron Williams

                                                     13  Andrew Bynum

                                                     14 Tony Parker

                                                     15 Chris Bosh

                                                     16 Carmelo Anthony

                                                     17 Dirk Nowitzki

                                                     18 Paul Pierce

                                                     19 Andre Iguodala 

                                                     20 Marc Gasol

                                                     21 Luol Deng  
   
                                                     22 Steve Nash

                                                     23 Joe Johnson 

                                                     24 Roy Hibbert





                                                   

I just don't understand how anyone can rank any player in this league above Kobe Bryant, it's really funny to be honest. A blind man can tell he is by far the best player in this league even in his early 30's. If you want to win the game, there are only 2 players in this league that can do it at 80% of the time, Kobe and Durant.

Any snubbees you wanted to mention?

I was surprised that Millsap wasn't on the All-Star team as a reserve. I didn't think the other Jazz players deserved serious consideration, but I thought Millsap had done enough to get in. He did go into a slump for awhile and the Jazz were unwatchable the first few games of the season.

I just don't understand how anyone can rank any player in this league above Kobe Bryant, it's really funny to be honest. A blind man can tell he is by far the best player in this league even in his early 30's. If you want to win the game, there are only 2 players in this league that can do it at 80% of the time, Kobe and Durant.

Actually there are no players that can do it 80% of the time.  Durant's team is close at a .778 winning percentage.  Kobe's team is not really anywhere near 80% and is down at .571 winning percentage.