Michael Bourn

Yogi, someone like Bourn is only a waste of money if you believe they won't be a winning team for 5 years like you do.  If they improve enough to be in the mix for the 2nd wild card next season, a player like Bourn could make all the difference.  It gets to a point where you ask then why not just reduce the payroll to $30MM and play all minor leaguers except Wright?  

I think it depends on how you define "reward".  Given how many different teams are in the playoffs every year there aren't many franchises that would give up on the next 5 years as a continuous chunk of non-competitive time.

Does anyone really know about Sizemore?  It seems that he's been hurt so much that he's barely even talked about.  He would definitely fit in with the "take a chance on an injured player" philosophy here, but it would be good to know wha tthe prognosis is. 

Yardbarker...

A Mets source told Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe that the front office is still trying to get MLB to allow them to keep their first-round pick if they sign Michael Bourn. They are still trying to determine whether they can convince Bourn to sign a potential backloaded deal and that they will go “all out on the compensation”  if they know their pick will be protected. In other words they will overpay if they have to as long as they can keep the pick. Sounds like this still has legs. Stay tuned…

Yogi, you and I know we can't compare the Mets and Yankees. The truth is the Yankees are a well oil machine. The Yankees would take a calculated risk on a free agent and if it doesn't work out they move on and eat the money which the Mets hardly ever do.

The Yankees have signed Hideki Irobu, Kei Igawa and Hideki Matsui from Japan over the years as well as Kuroda last year. The Yanks were one for three out of the purely Japanese signings, which when compared to prospect signings is good, in them panning out. The first two were bad but the Yankees don't win one of those WS w/o clutch hitting Matsui who was a steal. That is how winners operate. They are unafraid to take calculated chances. The Mets have never brought in an Asian difference maker but tried with Kaz Matsui. They should not let that bad signing keep them from this talent base. Yu Darvish is a prime example as well as Aoki with the Brewers and Kuroda with the Yankees to name a few.

The Yankees scored "El Duque" from Cuba after a few sour signings from there. Without the clutch pitching from him the Yankees would be minus a few more WS titles. The Mets struck gold with Rey Ordonez but haven't ventered back and let guys like Aroldis Chapman, a 100 mph young lefty, go without even bidding. The Reds got him for mear peanuts. Why didn't they use some of the money from Reyes (they said they would) not signing to ink Cespedes, would have won ROY any other year, for 36 mill which is now a steal? They a poor evaluators.

The Yankees are also smart with their prospects. They realize they are prospects. They build them up and use some high end prospects at the right time to get high end major league talent ie O'Neil, Knoblelach, Cone, Swisher, Granderson, Rodriguez to name a few. Some of the Mets best players over this 30 year period have been trades ie Piazza, Leiter, Hampton, Santana, Delgado, Olrude and hopefully d'Arnaud and Wheeler. The Mets need to keep this a steady source of bringing in solid talent. The Mets should have dealt Milledge and Martinez when they were offered guys like Manny Ramirez but hesitated.

They keep and develop solid prospects ie Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, Pettite, Cano, Gardner, Hughes, Chamberlain, Robertson and Nova to name a few. Four to five of those guys are HOF worthy. What have the Mets developed over that time? Wright and Reyes are the crown jewels from this time period and Reyes is playing for a different team. Alfonzo was solid, Hundley was good with steroids and hopefully the Mets hit on a few guys this time around but outside the 80's ie Strawberry, Wilson, Dykstra and Mitchell the Mets have proven they are unable to sign and develop legit outfielders. Maybe Nimmo and Puello can change that.

The Yankees are the trend setters using free agency. Just using the past 20 years they inked Martinez, Giambi and Tex to man first. Second was manned mostly by trade or prospect ie Soriano and Cano. Short by HOFer Jeter. Third by trade or free agent ie the guy from the A's, Hayes, Boggs and Rodriguez. Catcher by solid Posada, Giradi and Martin. Outfield by trade O'Niel, Swisher, Granderson- free agent Matsui, Damon and prospect Williams, Cabrera, Gardner. It is the Yankees keen signing of starting pitching that really sets them apart ie Clemens, Wells, the guy from the Orioles, Sabathia, Kuroda, "El Duque" Hernandez to name a few. What have we signed over that peroid (not counting reupping our own guys)? Ventura, Zeile, Floyd, Martinez, Beltran, Cameron, Glavine, K-Rod, Bay and Wagner. The Mets have had some solid signings and some of these guys ie Beltran were their best players while here but the Mets have not used free agency correctly like the Yankees do outside of getting Ventura, Beltran, K-Rod and Wagner.  

cj, the Yankees methodology was driven by George who considered any season without a Commissioners Cup a failed year.  The Yankees consistant winning, their network and the brand generated the revenues that fueled his ego.  He passionately and mercilessly had to win, players were discarded or verbally abused, ie "fat toad, and Mr. May".  GMs, managers, and pitching coaches were changed like socks.  He wanted the back pages and if dealing prospects or signing 100 M contracts got him air time on the networks and space in the papers that all translated into attendance. 

Steinbrenner may have had other investments after he left the shipbuilding in Cleveland, but if so it was low key.  His focus was the NYY.  Fred Wilpon is a good owner, he invested in his team and funded his new ballpark.  However he does not have the need to win or the need to be in the limelight.  He also doesn't have the ruthlessness of George.  He also has a wider spectrum of investing which limits the Mets focus.  Right or wrong he was also more dependent on his baseball people.  The quote attributed to Branch Rickey is it is "better to trade a player one year too soon than one year too late" holds true for GMs and managers.    






      

They are unafraid to take calculated chances. 

Eh, it's more like they'll just outspend everyone on just about any player.  If the signing doesn't work out, who cares?  Just sign someone else.

Making it sound like they are "taking calculated risks" and finding the right players, or getting the right players by taking chances is kind of ridiculous.  They don't have to take chances.  Pavano doesn't work out?  Randy Johnson doesn't?  It doesn't matter, just sign more pitchers.  It's not the same playing field as the rest of baseball. 
 
You have a list of like 400 names on that email but we all know the Yankees' signings over the last 20 years.  You'd have to lock yourself in a bomb shelter not to hear about them.  

The one difference in their standing though is now teams are finally getting wise to the over-hyping of prospects.  They've unloaded hyped guys for years and gotten back too much talent.  Now teams seem to be a little more suspect and are a lot more thorough in evaluation.

The Yankees have never accomplished anything without pulling out the mighty pocketbook.  They are usually well back in the draft pick line but overslot like crazy to get whatever good prospects that are left. Then they end up just using the prospects they bought as chips in trading for top players a few years later. The Yankees farm system sucks though, I think that's more the reason why they can't produce any good MLB players on their own.

The Yankees have never accomplished anything without pulling out the mighty pocketbook.  They are usually well back in the draft pick line but overslot like crazy to get whatever good prospects that are left. 

I am far from a Yankees fan but, I would say....Jeter, Williams, Cano, Gardner, Rivera, Posada is a decent crop that helped lead them for a long time...the Mets are hoarding prospects right now...they can't all make it...trade some before they turn into Fernando Martinez...

Yeah, I don't know if I'd say their farm system sucks, but it was super-strong in the mid-90s and then went pretty dry for a long time until they had the new influx of a few lately.  They were strangely patient in the early-to-mid 90s and it worked out for them.  The thing is that a lot of their hyped prospects aren't what they're supposed to be. 

Fair enough on that short list of players, but I'm pretty sure they drafted half of them when they sucked in the early 90's, all of them except Cano and Gardner.

Fair enough on that short list of players, but I'm pretty sure they drafted half of them when they sucked in the early 90's, all of them except Cano and Gardner....ATW

Am I missing something here?

Were the Mets good when they drafted Matlack in 1967, Backman in 1977, Strawberry in 1980, Gooden in 1982, or Harvey, Nimmo, and Cecchini the last 3 years?

 OF COURSE NOT...

Only Wright in 2001, Jefferies in 1985, Burnitz in 1990, Mazzilli in 1973, and Ike Davis in 2008 were top picks that made a name for themselves and were drafted when the Mets had success in the same year...

THE BOTTOM LINE IS STILL THIS...THEY ARE HOLDING ON TO A DREAM IF THEY THINK THAT EVEN 40% OF THEIR PROSPECTS MAKE IT TO THE MAJOR LEAGUES...LET SOMEONE ELSE BE DISAPPOINTED...

THE BOTTOM LINE IS STILL THIS...THEY ARE HOLDING ON TO A DREAM IF THEY THINK THAT EVEN 40% OF THEIR PROSPECTS MAKE IT TO THE MAJOR LEAGUES...LET SOMEONE ELSE BE DISAPPOINTED... MrBMG

What exactly do you want us to do? Trade our top prospects for a couple of veterans nearing the end of their prime or already past it? That won't guarantee we win either.  I'll ride with the prospects.  Right now we are the only MLB team to have 2 prospects in the top ten.

Taking a look at our top ten prospects...

• [Zack Wheeler]
• [Travis d'Arnaud]
• [Wilmer Flores]
• [Jeurys Familia]
• [brandon nimmo]
• [domingo tapia]
• [michael fulmer]
• [rafael montero]
• [luis mateo]
• [noah syndergaard]

No way I would trade Wheeler, Fulmer, D'Arnaud, Montero for anything right now. I suppose we could trade a couple of the other prospects off, but for what? Tell me who we'd be getting back that's gonna be so worthwhile instead of them these next couple years? Please don't waste my time naming off any past their prime players that only have a couple years of baseball left in them.

Given how many different teams are in the playoffs every year there aren't many franchises that would give up on the next 5 years as a continuous chunk of non-competitive time.-thomasam
The second wild card doesn't resonate with me as competitive.  Potentially the 10th best team in the league?  Neither does division winner when it means that you are the best of five teams and might be swept out of the playoffs.  LCS says competitive. 

The last twenty years have 27 teams in the LCS (Mets-3X), only six teams have been represented more than the Mets.  Only one team in the past twenty years has not had a five year drought......the Cardinals.    The Mets are at 6 years and counting and have been there before. 

62-69     7years
73-86   13 years
88-99   11 years

There are 5 teams that would be prohibitive favorites is a seven game series with Mets; Giants, Dodgers, Reds, Braves, Nationals.   Add the Phillies, Cardinals, D'Backs and Brewers who would be strong favorites, altogether far too many obstacles in the Mets path.      

ATW...Simple math tells me that the Mets do not have enough room in their 2015 rotation for:Niese
Harvey
Gee
Wheeler
Snydergaard
Fullmer
Montero
Mazzoni
Urbina
Mejia 
Familia 
Now, of course I realize that some of these pitchers could end up in the pen but then that is another long list...

Also...from all reports to date and even some opinions on the boards...Flores isa third baseman period...there is no place for him on this team for 7 years... He is coming off of a good season in AA and is primed for a trade...

You ask.."What do I want us to do?"

I want them to make a decision, I assume they have smart people working in the organization...I want them to put together a package of Flores and two of the pitchers not named Wheeler, Harvey, and Niese, and maybe add in a player like Murphy or Nieuwenhuis from the major league roster, to bring in some talent...not an over the hill player as you suggest...

There are teams out there like the Yankees with depleted minor league systems that would love to have some decent prospects... 
As you can see from the Lowrie trade, a young player can be had for a mid range package...Peacock and Stassi come up on the Astros prospect list as #10 and #16 respectively...they are not Wheeler and D'Arnaud...
The Mets could have offered the Astros Tejada, Fullmer or Montero, and Duda and got this deal done...Lowrie would have been an upgrade over Tejada for the next 7-10 years and Duda=Chris Carter...and by offering the Astros 2 major league ready players, they probably would have gotten back another prospect in return...

This is how you have to build a team...

So how do you know they aren't gonna trade a few of those guys? Alderson is probably giving them a little more time to develop so he can better decide on who he wants to trade or keep. Also, a rushed trade usually ends up in a bad deal. MrBMG, your posts and proposals this whole offseason make you sound like an extremely impatient fan. We are all sick of the results this team and management have been giving us, but that doesn't mean the best approach to get out of the slump quickly is to make rushed desperation trades.

 We are all sick of the results this team and management have been giving us, but that doesn't mean the best approach to get out of the slump quickly is to make rushed desperation trades....ATW

I am as frustrated as the next fan...and as impatient as the next fan...no more, no less...

All I want to see is year to year imporvements and a direction that will take the team towards contention and apossible championship.

In the last 25 years, since the 1986 Championship, we have seen a team that went to the World Series once and the NLCS 4 times... 
They have won 90 games or more only 6 times over 25 years and they have lost 90 games or more just as many times...

The last 4 seasons has produced records of:
70-92
79-83
77-85
74-88
...and four 4th place finishes...

The last two seasons, the team was in a good position at the break and they could have added to improve, especially in 2011 when they dumped the Beltran and KRod contracts and were coming off of a 2010 season where they improved over the previous year by nine games...they did not...

Above all..I still contend that a good team is built by combining youth, stars, and those intangible players that come in and provide leadership and the workman like game day after day...guys like Tim Teufel, Ray Knight, Todd Zeile, Joe McEwing...guys the Yankees added during their good years like Girardi, Brosius and O'Neill...they don't have to be big stars...

The Mets have not done any of that for the past three seasons...

Instead they have given us guys like Nickeas, Batista, Hawkins, and Cowgill...

The last twenty years have 27 teams in the LCS (Mets-3X), only six teams have been represented more than the Mets.  Only one team in the past twenty years has not had a five year drought.

Yes, and some of those years were before the wild card and most of them were before the 2nd wild card.  Here's the thing though:  maybe most teams have had a five year drought, but they haven't PLANNED it.  The way many posters are thinking, they're just going to throw away the next few seasons because they "can't compete".  I don't buy it.

Whether or not the 2nd wild card is truly competitive or not really doesn't matter.  The playoffs give you a chance to have anything happen.  You have the one game, and a good pitching performance puts you in the next round.  Then it's again a few hits here, a few good plays there and you're in the NLCS.

Since the wild card began in 1995 there have been 18 NLCS, or 36 teams.  Of those 36 teams, 10 have been wild card teams.  Really not bad.  Only 8 of the 18 seasons has there been no wild card teams in the NLCS.  Considering that only 25% of the teams were wild card teams yet 28% of them made the championship series, I'd say being a wild card means you're competitive.  

There are 5 teams that would be prohibitive favorites is a seven game series with Mets; Giants,Dodgers, Reds, Braves, Nationals.   Add the Phillies, Cardinals, D'Backs and Brewers who would be strong favorites, altogether far too many obstacles in the Mets path.  

Last year going into the season everyone would say that the Yankees, Red Sox, Tigers, Angels, Rays and Rangers would be prohibitive favorites over the A's and Orioles.  Most people would also add in Chicago also.  Yet both teams were in the playoffs.

Plus you're really going to project that all of those teams will be better for the next 5 SEASONS?  Come on.  Except for the yankees, Boston, St. Louis and philly, no teams in all of baseball have even been consistently top-tier over the last five seasons. 

Nobody wants Duda.

I'm sorry but i think the A's-Astros trade is a bad example.  I haven't read opinion on it yet but I think it's a terrible trade for the A's.  I know Beane is who he is, but they have up a top pitching prospect who just had one bad year in Peacock, a good hitting OF/DH in Carter who's finally finding his way, and an OK catching prospect for someone who's really done nothing in the majors.

Do you erally think Lowrie would be that big an improvement over Tejada?  Last year Lowrie "exploded" for 16 HR and 42 RBIs while hitting .244.  The year prior though he hit .252-6-36 in half a season.  It's nothing spectacular.  That's a minor improvement, but giving up someone like Fulmer could end up being a terrible trade.

Yes, the 86 team added role players to fill out a championship roster, and the Yankees did that in the 90s also.  The thing is they had the stars first.  An upgrade from Tejada to Lowrie isn't the same as having Backman and Teufel mixed in with Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, Darling, Fernandez and so on. 

I am a Met fan but the hatred for the Yankees makes a number of posters here look ridiculous. It is not always about money. The Mets have been incompetent for years. That is what holds this organization back more then anything.

How can one argue that since 1990 the Yankees have far out produced the Mets in scouting prospects and developing them? That is just sour grapes.

Yankees: Jeter (1st ballot HOFer), Rivera ( 1st ballot HOFer, best ever at his position not even close), Williams (great clutch player, borderline HOF), Posada (solid player, borderline HOF), Pettite (big game machine, possible HOF), Soriano (big time skills, still mashing, let's see his numbers when he calls it quits for HOF contention), Cano (best in biz at his position, probable HOFer if he has 5 more "Cano" typical seasons), Cabrera (good solid OF, PEDs cloud future like half the players), Chamberlain (solid pitcher who needs a defined role and health), Hughes (solid mid rotation arm who will tell a lot this year), Robertson (one of baseballs' best setup guys), Nova (solid back of rotation arm on good team), Gardner (speed, defense, would of started anywhere else by now, could really take off this year), Austin Jackson (top CFer), Phil Coke (strong lefty pen arm), Vizcaiano (waiting for chance to bust out this year with Cubs), Delgado (Braves have spot for him), Aceves (solid arm for Sox), Montero (year two could bring big rise in stats) and the list goes on and on.

2 sure fire HOFers, 5 more maybe. That is scouting. That wasn't bought my friends. That is a legit organization that has more baseball lore then anyone.

Mets: Agbayani, Bobby Jones (nice 5th starter but average career), AJ Burnett (up and down with tons of skill), Preston Wilson (nice little career), Alfonzo (one of the organizations best of last 20 years), Maine (had a brief stint but got from Orioles), Hundley (nice run while on PEDs), Ordonez (best fielding SS of his ERA), Feliciano (solid lefty pen arm), Wright (one top two players developed from this time frame), Reyes (the other top player produced), Gomez (starting to build a career in Milwakee), Milledge (can't even hang in Japan), Martinez (will get his chance with Houston), Humber (average, blew his arm out before career got started), Paul Wilson (same as Humber), Pelfrey (some success, Mets never let him develop an off speed pitch in minors before promoting him), Murphy (nice player, not a star, Laughable at Omars' comment that he is the next Don Mattingly), Davis (should be another solid find), d'Arnaud (hopefully lives up to billing but got from another organization), Wheeler (same as d'Arnaud) and Harvey (looks like the real deal.

I had to include the "hopefuls" which I didn't for the Yankees. The Mets have not produced an ace type or even #2 type since the 80's (Kazmir was good for a short while). The Mets haven't produced a closer or outfielder since the 80's worth anything. Basically the Mets have produced Wright, Reyes and Davis, for now, as their big ticket home grown players. The reason their farm system has taken a nice bump up is from players gotten from other organizations ie Wheeler, d'Arnaud and Syndergaard.

So for the guys playing in the show now none look like HOFers but Wright and Reyes could be borderline with 5 more super seasons and Davis looks like a nice power source who should have a good career but not a HOF career.


Summation: Not even close, the Yankees in a landslide. That is from an honest Met fan. 

Thomas...I agree with some of what you said in your posts but, if you go back and look, you will find that the Mets had some of the role players in place well before 1986...

Santana was added in 1984
HoJo was added in Dec 1984
Knight was added in August of 1984
Heep was added in 1982
Hearn was signed in 1984 

What significant Major League players have the Mets signed or traded for in the last 3 years that will be here and help them win besides possibly Marcum?

To me, this is 1983 all over again but, it could have been 1984 if they had added a decent piece or two in the last two seasons...
A team last year that could have been an 83 win team would have been one significant player this year from being a Wild card Contender...and when the payroll drops next year, adding two more names to the mix in combination with the kids would have made this a formidable team...

This is just my opinion guys...take it as you wish...