KU @ TCU Game Thread

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this stat:

Releford, a 5th year senior, who has seen the best and worst of KU basketball in his time in Lawrence, and who as much or more than any of the team members should understand the low point we're in now after Ok St and in the 2nd half of last night's game, only took one FG attempt in 36 mins.  And attempted zero FGs in the second half.

Here's a kid avg'ing 7 FG attempts per game in conf and shooting ~60% in conf.  We didn't need a monster offensive game from him...if he just played his avg's, we likely win.  It would still be an ugly win and we'd still be bitchin' about it but it would likely be a W nonetheless.

Maybe these past two losses are for the best. Teams usually don't address weaknesses much when they are winning ugly, because they are still winning. Maybe now, they will address some issues in earnest.

When I first tuned into last night's game at the 5 minute mark of the first half and Kansas had only 5 points, I thought I had walked through a wormhole into a parallel Universe.

Maybe these past two losses are for the best. Teams usually don't address weaknesses much when they are winning ugly, because they are still winning. Maybe now, they will address some issues in earnest.

Very good observation.  I think our excellent defense really 'masked' some ongoing problems with scoring (I brought up our scoring problems in the post-game WV game thread...a game we won).

We see this in the business world where when a company can charge whatever it wants for its products, it pays little attention to its cost structure.  All of a sudden, competition or other mkt pressures cap or even reduce what it can charge for its products and then all of a sudden it realizes it has to do something about run-away costs.  (similar problem with our fed govt's endless credit card limit and treasury printing presses but I'd prefer to avoid that discussion on a sports board).

If you look back at scoring, the problem has been there and perhaps the coaching staff saw it, but it wasn't acknowledged by many (most?) KU fans as we were focused on the outcome only rather than how we were getting there.

Yes, my observation is that most entities, whether it be a company, team, or person don't address issues until they absolutely have too. Most people don't really grow up until they have children and have too. So nothing new on that front.

You just said the "guards are fine" and "we have a pg who isn't good at running the point" in back to back sentences.  Yes, I know, it is Self's fault for not overhauling his system or whatever you think should happen but the bottom line is guard play is far from "fine".   But to single out any aspect of this team as the reason why it is struggling right now is futile because what we are watching is a total group effort, or lack thereof.   I do agree with you that not having a low post scoring threat is hamstringing this team.



The guards are fine in that they should be the focal point of the offense. Within this system, no we do not have a guy capable of running the pg, but other than that they are the strong point of the team offensively and should be able to thrive in either a different system or with a few somewhat major tweaks in the current one.


Self's system is proven, but if he doesn't do something out of his comfort zone this particular team will not reach it's potential and will continue to struggle offensively. 

"The guards are fine in that they should be the focal point of the offense. Within this system, no we do not have a guy capable of running the pg, but other than that they are the strong point of the team offensively and should be able to thrive in either a different system or with a few somewhat major tweaks in the current one."

In your mind this makes perfect sense. In print it is a complete mess. So "other than not having a guy capable of running the PG, our guards are the strong point of the team"?!? ISN"T THAT THE PRIMARY ROLE OF HALF OF THE GUARD ROTATION?!? So half the guards are a complete failure and they are the strong point? Either you're losing it or you are taking a backhanded shot at the front court by saying "the group that is failing is better than you" but there really is no universe in which the play that we are getting out of our guards can be described as strong lately.

"Self's system is proven, but if he doesn't do something out of his comfort zone this particular team will not reach it's potential and will continue to struggle offensively.  "

Every single person on this team has shown at some point that they are capable of doing the job that they have been assigned. They just need to get back to DOING it and then they need to start driving forward towards making the adjustments needed to IMPROVE how they do their jobs. EJ can make it through the game without throwing a ball into the stands or taking 10 three pointers. Tharpe can make it through a game without shooting a 1-on-4 three pointer. Releford can make it through a game where he plays lock down defense AND still manages to participate in the offense by shooting more than once. McLemore can make it through a game where he doesn't space out on his defensive assignment. Withey can make it through a game where he works hard enough on the blocks to get into to position to take at least 10 shots. Ellis can make it through a game where he establishes post position well enough to get a handful of good looks. Young can make it through a game where he hustles for loose balls and rebounds and takes easy shots that are there.

No one is asking ANY KU player to do something that they are not capable of. I understand that this is not the best case scenario setup for a roster, but we have MORE than enough to be competitive against any team in the country IF they do what they are capable of. They don't have to have the best game of their life to win. They just have to do what they are capable of.

It's not that EJ CANNOT run the point, he just HASN'T done it well enough yet this year. He is perfectly capable. Heck, many times last year fans were calling for him to do it instead of the guy that was in there. He hasn't suddenly lost the ability to do that, his brain is just in the way of his abilities and that is the problem with ALL of these guys right now.

I've been curiously absent (Had a Great Week personally, getttin out hooping and bar-hopping!) from all the fracas that surrounded our most recent loss. When I chekked the score while playing Weds. Night, all I could say was "Holy Sh!t" for about 2 or 3 straight minutes.

Shellshokked, bamboozled as I went home to watch the debacle I recorded. Living here in Austin, where I constantly antagonize UT fans, I didn't hear the end of it the next morn.

All I can say is, wow...we shot terrible! I know many folks get railed against for calling out the system our HC chooses to employ, but I guess I gotta be one of those "outcasts". I have held bakk long enough about it. The very fact that Self employs a "system" leaves him open for criticism that many of our fandom would rather brush to the side.

Have you wondered why as the season progresses, our "stars" seem to make lots of silly turnovers? This isn't some coicidence...teams (especially the ones that are somewhat free-movement oriented and aggressive) overplay our system of passing on the perimeter, and jump the lanes for several turnovers a game. Our players are so drilled in the system, that they often continue this excercise into oblivion.

As I watched last night, I saw us outrebound TCU and get out on the break, but as SOON as there was a player between the basket and a the dribble it was bakk it out and run our offense, no further maneuvering, no quik screen read plays, just stagnant and predicatable patterns of passing, movement and shooting. Remember Temple, remember Ok St. once teams snap out of the name on the front they realize, this is the SAME stuff over and over just about.

Wonder why our kids (Self's recruits) go to the pros and NEVER establish much identity for themselves that involves playmaking? Outside of spot-up shooters, who really from Self's recruits ever came out and could create his own shot? His system handicapps creativity off the dribble, shot creation and thinking on the run in a lot of instances.  Is it successful? More times than not, yes, it is adequate...but a system lasts for only so long...think bakk to the last BIG SYSTEM you heard about in College Sports, I remember Steve Spurrier and his Gators.  Lasted for over 10 years, they won games, his players left his program to the big leagues and (on offense) were pretty unsuited for play often times.

All this to say, I hope Self can come down some on his approach for this team. We need an isolation every now and again.  We need some quik play reads and we need some dribble-drive penetration...hell we also need to hit a darn shot (which can't be more than a quarter Self's blame!)!!  But we can all agree SOMETHING has to change!

Forgive the dissertation somewhat...its been a few days and I had a couple things to say about the situation we have brewing.

First off let me clarify one thing.  If I call this team overrated, its not the same thing as calling out one player for point shaving or being stoned.  Second, even if a person is pissed about how we are playing, we can't suggest those things.  Those are complete character assinations.  So don't get so defensive about overrated comments.

Everyone can express opinions on here.  Some we like, some we think are cuckie.  Everyone watches games with different set of glasses on.  Some are KU blue an some are not.  The one thing is we are all KU fans or we wouldn't be on here discussing our teams success or failures. 

Right now we are overrated.  What have we done since conference play started?  We beat KSU, Top 15 team.  We should have lost to the Cyclones.  We could have lost to Texas.  We let WVA get back into a game that they could have won.  Oklahoma came back and we had to scrape that game out.  Oklahoma St comes in with maybe 3 NBA draft picks and give us more than we were ready for.  Equal talent, and  basically did what ever they wanted to do.  TCU a team that has no talent compared to us, we decide not to show up until 5 minutes left in the game. 

I think we could turn into a Top 4 team again, but we haven't really played like one for a month or better.  Louisville lost 3 games in a row, and now seem to be playing well again.  Refocus, reapply, and return to action.

One more thing that I think deserves some mentioning is that maybe the Big 12 isn't as bad as the National pundits think as well.  TCU is terrible.  Baylor, ISU, OSU, KSU and OU are capable of beating anyone on any given night.  Texas has enough talent to give teams fits.  WVA has a coach who can create some havoc.  Texas Tech beat ISU in Lubbock. 

Tommorow is a new start for this team, the whole NATION is watching to see if this team will rebound, or flounder out.  I don't know what too think right now, but I can guarantee this team will have some fire and energy.

2coach made some good points about what these players are capable and what they have shown thus far able to do.  I completely agree with those comments.  EJ can play the spot, but really hasn't done it well for a while. 

So asking this question at what time does ableness out weigh cababilities?  Same goes with Ellis and others.  We know that they are capable, but are they ever going to be able this season?

As far as i am concerned that magic light bulb has really never glowed too bright above EJ's head.  At what point does the switch go off and we move on?

"The guards are fine in that they should be the focal point of the offense. Within this system, no we do not have a guy capable of running the pg, but other than that they are the strong point of the team offensively and should be able to thrive in either a different system or with a few somewhat major tweaks in the current one."

In your mind this makes perfect sense. In print it is a complete mess. So "other than not having a guy capable of running the PG, our guards are the strong point of the team"?!? ISN"T THAT THE PRIMARY ROLE OF HALF OF THE GUARD ROTATION?!? So half the guards are a complete failure and they are the strong point? Either you're losing it or you are taking a backhanded shot at the front court by saying "the group that is failing is better than you" but there really is no universe in which the play that we are getting out of our guards can be described as strong lately.


Like I said, the pg (actually running the point) is a weak point in THIS offense...but the guards clearly have the ability to be a very strong force to be reckoned with. And no, it's not half the role of the guard rotation to run the point....it's one out of the three. Surely you've seen teams in previous years who run a different offense with talented guards but with no true point guard who have a good offense....thats what we gotta find a way to do. You'd be crazy to think our bigs are better than our guards on offense this year...nobody thinks that but you.

Sure EJ might be able to run the point better than he has...eventually, but not at the level we need and it won't maximize his abilities or anyone elses. So sure everyone CAN perform well the way things are set up now, but it's not as likely as if we make some changes within the offense.

"Have you wondered why as the season progresses, our "stars" seem to make lots of silly turnovers? This isn't some coicidence...teams (especially the ones that are somewhat free-movement oriented and aggressive) overplay our system of passing on the perimeter, and jump the lanes for several turnovers a game. Our players are so drilled in the system, that they often continue this excercise into oblivion. "

The system is not designed for players to throw lazy lollipop tosses that someone could pick off from out of the stands. The expectation is that the player make the pass ONLY if there is not an opponent standing there waiting to pick it off. It shouldn't be autopilot. Do you really think that Bill Self coaches them to make that pass no matter what the situation or the positioning of the opponent? Come on, he may play dumb but he's not stupid.

Wonder why our kids (Self's recruits) go to the pros and NEVER establish much identity for themselves that involves playmaking?

What players have had the ABILITY to do so at the NBA level? Name one. Chalmers? Yes, and he does so on a regular basis at Miami. Rush, kind of but he is a lazy pot smoker who is on cruise control while cashing his checks. The Morris twins? They were spot up shooters here and they are spot up shooters in the NBA. They talked tough here but never backed it up with tough play and they are the same at the NBA level. Do you think that's because of Self's system? No.

His system handicapps creativity off the dribble, shot creation and thinking on the run in a lot of instances.

That's ridiculous. He BEGS his perimeter players to drive and create on their own. He BEGGED Rush top do more and now he is BEGGIN G MCLemore to do more. The opportunity is there and he passes it up too often. Has Bill Self EVER benched McLemore for not passing and choosing to create a shot for himself? NEVER. Has he ever made a single comment about how he wished McLemore would move the ball more? No, but he has made a zillion about how he wishes he would be more aggressive and look for his shot more.

"but a system lasts for only so long...think bakk to the last BIG SYSTEM you heard about in College Sports, I remember Steve Spurrier and his Gators."

Get off this stupid "system" thing you're on. This isn't some quirky system. It is the same concept as virtually every offense in college and pro basketball. Move the ball from side to side to get open shots and work the ball to the post to get high percentage shots and drive to the rim to break down the offense or get open looks at threes. You hear every announcer in every basketball game preaching it. It's fundamental basketball, not some weird niche that Bill Self has created.

"All this to say, I hope Self can come down some on his approach for this team. We need an isolation every now and again.  We need some quik play reads and we need some dribble-drive penetration..."

Why, because Johnson and Tharpe have shown that they are so great at breaking people down off the dribble? Please. They have shown that they make good decisions with the ball when driving? Please. Bill Self isn't preventing anyone from driving the ball, he is BEGGING his players to do it more.

Hey, here's an idea. Maybe the players should finish the 8 zillion shots at the rim that Bill Self's system gets them. If you aren't capable of finishing a damn bunny from 5 feet away it doesn't matter what you did before that. There is no system in the world that makes shots on its own.  You have the TCU game on DVR, go count how many shots they mossed from inside five feet and tell me there is a SYSTEM problem. Even crappy college teams should hit 50% from inside five feet unless they are grossly undersized.

"But we can all agree SOMETHING has to change!"

What has to change is that the seniors need to play like they are seniors and actually USE the experience they have to play smart and focused. This is an EXECUTION problem, not a system problem. No one is being asked to do something they can't do. If you can't hit a freaking bunny from 5 feet then there is nothing that any coach on the planet can do for you. I know we all want to be nice to the players and pat them on the head forr fear of hurting their delicate little egos, but at what point should they actually be expected to DO THEIR JOB?!?

"Like I said, the pg (actually running the point) is a weak point in THIS offense."

I actually think that Self's system is PERECT when you don't have a pure PG. KU doesn't have a system where you have one guy standing at the top of the key trying to break guys down one on one. There really is no difference between what EJ,Tharpe, BMac and Releford are being asked to do. All have to pass into the post. All have to move the ball sidee to side. All have the option to drive to the rim if it presents itself. There is nothing position specific about it. You';re either a perimeter guy on the outside or a big trying to establish position on the post. EJ really doesn't need to do anything different than last year other than bring the ball up a bit more and call plays.

PG isn't a weak point in this offense, it's just not a unique point.

"You'd be crazy to think our bigs are better than our guards on offense this year...nobody thinks that but you."

BMac and Relford have been great at what they are asked to do. But both have lulled from that this past few weeks. Johnson and Tharpe have been AWFUL lately obviously and not particularly good all year. Withey has been good but needs to step it up to the next level. Too much spectating. 6 shots against TCU was unacceptable.

The system is not designed for players to throw lazy lollipop tosses that someone could pick off from out of the stands. The expectation is that the player make the pass ONLY if there is not an opponent standing there waiting to pick it off. It shouldn't be autopilot.

Of course Self doesn't coach them in this manner...but the pattern of passing and movment at the top of the arc has them drilled to make that pass over and over, and it becomes repetitious.  When the situation changes and players are jumping the lanes, they STILL make this pass, and its not just our PGs...a decent portion of the time they are on the verge of travelling if they can't make that patterened pass, this is where creativity or the freedom to do so (however you perceive it) is key, it often doesn't happen.

What players have had the ABILITY to do so at the NBA level?

That's part of the problem IMO, he hasn't "made" players that can create in large numbers.  Rush could have been one. Bmac has the tools, and finds himself hamstrung by the offense...the movemen, the timing, the expectations it seems.


My week grandiose week continues...so I'll get bakk with yawl tmrw...sukks we lost today...but I'm over this week Ha!

I am not agreeing that our system is in for a needed change,  but you have to adapt your system for the personnel you have to run it.  Systems are great if all pieces fit it and can run it effectively. 

Chemistry seems to lack on this team right now.  Chemistry or lack of, can damage any system or offense.  Yes I am hard on EJ right now, but he still after 23 games can not anticipate where his teammates are going to be.  He can't seem to make that right pass from time to time. 

Systems or not, your players have to be accountable first.  They aren't doing the things that propel you into winning games right now.  Turnovers, lazy passes, and taking bad shots have nothing to do with our system.

"That's part of the problem IMO, he hasn't "made" players that can create in large numbers. "

Name one basketball player on the planet EVER that was MADE into that type of player. ONE. You either have it or you don't. Adn if you have it, you either use it or you don't. Right now, BMac has it but hasn't figured out how to use it. I am sure that the coaching staff is trying to teach him every technique possible to help him take advantage of it, but you cannot run out on the floor and push the guy around the corner.
"Bmac has the tools, and finds himself hamstrung by the offense...the movemen, the timing, the expectations it seems."

BMac is hamstrung by his own limitations. He cannot do anything with his left hand, he is a below average handler of the ball and he does not have an array of moves that he uses to get around the corner to the rim. He is a spectacular shooter and athlete but that isn't enough yet. He is doing well at what he can do, but he has his limitations and is not particularly hard to guard from an opponents gameplan perspective. If you would simply be HONEST with your evaluation of him, you would realize the same thing. If he stayed for two more years, he would dominate college basketball, but right now he is  more potential than performance. And his performance right now is as a good college level basketball player, don't get me worng. But he hasn't even remotely reached the peak of his potential and that's not because of his coaches or the offense that Bill Self runs.

I am not agreeing that our system is in for a needed change,  but you have to adapt your system for the personnel you have to run it.

And I think that Self has done that. We do not pass into the post nearly as much as we used to when we had stronger players on the interior because Withey simply does not establish strong enough position often enough.

"Systems or not, your players have to be accountable first.  They aren't doing the things that propel you into winning games right now.  Turnovers, lazy passes, and taking bad shots have nothing to do with our system. "

Thank god, another voice of reason. Since Bill Self stepped foot on campus, he has won more games than any other coach in all of college basketball. He has dominated the Big 12 conference and he has rountinely been a major force in the ncaa tourney. To think that his system is limiting KU's success is borderline insanity. Players need to execute to their abilities and they are not doing that right now. Yesterday's offense was a little better but their defensive performance was far below their abilities and unacceptable to win games at the major college level.