KSU @ AFH

Does anyone have a guess as to why Tharpe wasn't in the lineup to start the second half?  I mean seriously, the guy controlled the offensive tempo which led to a huge run in first half then we don't see him again until after the first media timeout of the second half.  Even sh*t**** for brains Musberger could see "Thorpe's" impact on KU's offense.  "

For the same reason that Sherron Collins continued to come off the bench in 2008 even when he was outplaying Russell Robinson. You do not bench your senior in this situation. It does nothing but frustrate Johnson to have Tharpe start on the floor in the 2nd half. Frankly, when everyone else is hitting on all cylinders is the BEST time to have EJ out there to boost his confidence and energy levels. Tharpe is brought in both to spell Johnson and play beside Johnson enough that it does not matter who walks out there first. Plus, Tharpe will be more effective out there if he gets to go more minutes against the opponent's bench players. He comes in at the same time that the opponent typically brings in reserves.

We need to get past this whole "who starts" concern and think about "who is out there when it matters" and Tharpe was out there when the team needed him to be. He had an excellent first half and I hope he continues to see what type of performance is expected of him out there. We just blew the doors off of the #10 team in the country and moved back into a tie for 1st in the conference. Are we really concerned about who starts the 2nd half? Tharpe isn't going to play all 20 minutes of the 2nd half, so wouldn't you rather have him out there for the last four minutes or the first four minutes?

And yes, Mushberger is terrible. He clearly feels that he is beyond the point where he needs to actually prepare for games and learn how to pronounce people's names. Arrogant a$$.

"I think Johnson will remain the starter, but Tharpe will get more minutes like Collins did in '08. That year Robinson was the starter, but often Collins got big minutes. Before anyone hollers, I'm not comparing Tharpe to Collins. Those two couldn't be more different at the same position."

But you are 100% accurate in the comparison. Robinson the senior was kept as the starter because of his veteran presense, just as Johnson is. Robinson wasn't playing poorly, Collins was just a much more dynamic scorer. And honestly, I think he scored so well BECAUSE he was coming off the bench and wanted to prove his worth. I think if Collins was actually given the starting nod that his production would have dropped off. Some guys need a chip on their shoulder to have something to prove. Keep Tharpe coming off the bench and he may continue to try to come in and show what he's got. Lots of players have been great in the drive to prove someone wrong or that they deserve more.

As for Tharpe in the starting lineup...don't mess with it. It's been working fine the last two games, don't change the dynamic. You never know if it will change the way Tharpe plays or views himself or deals with the added pressure/exposure/status or how EJ will react to coming off the bench his SR year. They may very well both be fine, but you can't know for sure so don't mess with it.

Also, Tharpe has had that kind of impact for exactly ONE career game. I'm somewhat optimistic it can continue in a somewhat similar manner, but i'd love to see a few more games like that from him.

2coach, I wasn't referring to aggressiveness on D, but yes that was certainly back in abundance. Maybe it wasn't as much as an adjustment as a reinforcement. Self said himself before the OU game, that sometimes we've been running offense just to run it instead of looking to score. Sounds to me like that has only been reinforced in the last two games. You can't deny that even when they were "stuck" in half court offense, it's looked different the last 2 games. I never said Self made changes last night, it started with the OU game. Maybe your're right, not really a tweak, but at the very least a reinforcement.


I could also argue that no previous Self team at KU has looked to attack the defense at each opportunity like the one last night. Every other team has had a more competent inside presence that allowed the team to be good offensively in this system without ever being all that aggressive attacking the defense from the perimeter. 

"Self said himself before the OU game, that sometimes we've been running offense just to run it instead of looking to score. Sounds to me like that has only been reinforced in the last two games. You can't deny that even when they were "stuck" in half court offense, it's looked different the last 2 games."

Have you ever coached kids in their teens or early twenties? You can give them the same message in the same manner fifty times and they might hear it one day and ignore it the next. They aren't computers, they are mentally unrefined kids. It seems simply that it took embarassing themselves on a national scale for them to get back to paying attention to the same message.

"I never said Self made changes last night, it started with the OU game. Maybe your're right, not really a tweak, but at the very least a reinforcement."

I am sure he was reinforcing the same points after the Okie State game and definitely after the TCU game, but the players just didn't respond until they chose to respond. Sometimes it is simply out of a coaches hands.

The point is that no change was made by Self, it was simply a matter of the players getting back to doing what has always been asked of them. We all agree that they more against OU but not nearly enough and finally returned to normal last night. It was a great win for KU and I hope it opens their eyes to how they need to play from here on out and what happens when they do and do not play that way.

"I could also argue that no previous Self team at KU has looked to attack the defense at each opportunity like the one last night. Every other team has had a more competent inside presence that allowed the team to be good offensively in this system without ever being all that aggressive attacking the defense from the perimeter."

You could but I don't think you'd be right. The 2008 team was relentless in attacking from the perimeter both off the dribble and via the lob. Last night was a nice game, though.

 KU needs Johnson to realize his scoring potential, so I wasn't suggesting benching him for Tharpe but rather that he play SG where he can be more beneficial to the team. Outside of Naadir Tharpe, our bench scored ONE POINT.  It is unlikely we'll see Withey, BMac, Young, and Releford all in double digits on the same night very often.  Bottom line, we need those who can create their own shot to do so consistently.  Our two best options for this are Big Ben and Elijah Johnson.  However, I can't see Johnson scoring consistently while also trying to create opportunities for his teammates.  

But focusing on the positive I'm actually encouraged by Johnson's performance last night.  Scoring seemed to be his priority although the box score doesn't reflect that.  He was only 1-6 from the field, but he didn't take any bad shots......just missed some close ones.  He also got to the line and made every free throw which suggests to me he is starting to regain some mental toughness.  He turned the ball over a couple times, but that's because he was trying to push the ball into transition so he could get an easy bucket.  I'll live with those turnovers.  EJ is a natural scorer and his shots will start falling so long as he doesn't go back to forcing ill advised passes which result in turnovers

in his 10 years here, Self has never once mentioned his team struggling with running offense just to run it instead of looking to score until the OU game. It may have been something that was simply never an issue because we always had an inside scoring presence and never struggled this routinely to score. Now that we don't have that, it's finally become an issue worth addressing. I don't know that first hand, but the perimeter guys have been awfully aggressive the last 2 games and the KSU game was the pinnacle of perimeter aggression in the Self era, IMO.

...I don't see how anyone can call what they saw last night "back to normal" (as far as aggressiveness from the perimeter) 

Winning is back to normal, for me.  It was a good game for us last night.  I thought our team and crowd took KSU out early. 

As far as Tharpe and EJ go, it all depends on matchups and whos hot as too who gets more minutes.  Starting rolls will not really change unless EJ completely falls apart on both ends.  I am more supporting of Tharpe right now, but every game is different.

Tharpe however was the catalyst last night for a good stretch in the first half, and Self stuck with him.  That should show everyone that Self does have confidence in Tharpe enough too allow him some freedom to run the team if EJ does have issues.

Mclemore was really good last night.  I think he can be more of a shot taker, but when things are going good, no need to press the issue.

I was frustrated by our 3 losses,  but looking around the game, we are not the only team losing some games right now.  WE haven't been beaten badly, just embarrassed to lose to TCU.  Bad loss, but not a beating like some teams are taking.  We might lose another game or two, but I think come tourney time this team has a strong passion to succeed.

Just me, but I don't think that the overall talent level in the Big 12 is that bad.  Yes its not as good as some years have been, but really its not bad.  OSU has some young extremely talented players.  ISU has some really nice players.  KSU has nice players.  Texas has some good players, but just no point guard or guard play YET.  OU has really improved under Kruger.  Good players on its roster.  So the TCU loss stings yet, but the other losses are respectable in my opinion.  We should undervalue our league too much right now.  I think the next two years our league will really look nice.

Last night was a nice move in the right direction but lets not pretend like this one game has them completely back on track.

Upcoming games

Texas in town - not a gimme.  Texas is down but they usually give KU a game so KU will have to play well or risk a UT upset
@ OKST - speaks for itself
TCU in town - I will be very disappointed if KU doesn't win by 20+....they owe TCU bigtime for that embarrassment
@Iowa St - This is always one of the toughest, if not the toughest, road games every year.

Anything less than 2-2 is a joke.  2-2 is certainly possible but if this team really has things figured out then 3-1 or better will be the mark in these games.         

It depends on what your benchmark for "completely back on track" is. That was the second best game they've played all year in my opinion with only the Ohio State game being better. Sure they were blowing out teams for a few games but let's face it, those games were against inferior opponents for the most part outside of Colorado who is a bubble team and Belmont who will be a tournament team probably. That KSU team we beat last night was good, although I agree with twocoach when he says we match up well against them. If you look at it from my perspective this team is back. Elijah Johnson isn't back, but he will find his way back I think.

I agree with your assessment of the next four games, couldn't have said it better myself. Texas will be even tougher with Kabongo back in the lineup.

Kabongo will improve Texas some, but he hasn't played all year in any games.  It will take more than a few game for him and the team to adjust to him on the court.  Texas will be tough, but in the Phog, Gameday crew on hand, I expect a solid victory.  10 to 15 point win.  Mind you, a win is a win, so even if we win by 1, I will take it.

ISU is  tough at Ames.  OSU tough in Stillwater.  I think we take one of the two.  OSU doens't have a real inside presence to take on Withey.  They will be rough, but not as big.  Markel Brown most likely won't have 22 first half points against anyone else this year let alone at home.  They made shots, and won the  game.  EJ lost the ball with a chance to tie the game.  It wasn't like they just walked in and beat us by 20.  SMart although is a great player and this game will likely showcase who is the best freshmen in the league and maybe the nation.

Dont forget about Baylor.  They can be tough at home.  They might scare be as much as anyone on the sched right now.  Size, shooters, and Waco can  be a tough place to play. 

EJ is not over the hump, but if Tharpe can come in off bench and provide some spark, and allow EJ some minutes at the 2 guard, eventually he will break out of his shooting slump.  His shots are close, just not g oing down yet.

Young is providing some real spark, just wish he could hit a 15 footer to take the defense away from Withey some. 

"in his 10 years here, Self has never once mentioned his team struggling with running offense just to run it instead of looking to score until the OU game. It may have been something that was simply never an issue because we always had an inside scoring presence and never struggled this routinely to score. "

Maybe it is simply the makeup of this year's team. In his ten years at KU, Self has never had a team that did not have at least one chest thumping alpha dog on it. Langford, Chalmers, Collins, Morris twins, T-Rob, Taylor. This year we have a bunch of really nice young men who are all polite and who are all trying very hard to be good teammates. MOST of the time this is good, but it does have it's problems when you need someone to simply step up to the plate and take the reigns.

I think that is the big reason Roy's teams didn''t fully reach their potential. He didn't like guys like that and rarely had them.

"I don't know that first hand, but the perimeter guys have been awfully aggressive the last 2 games and the KSU game was the pinnacle of perimeter aggression in the Self era, IMO."

That may be a bit of a reach since we are all a little more desperate to see specific things right now after the three game slide but I'll agree that the OU game was OK and the KSU game was very good in this aspect. I remember a lot of games where Chalmers and Rush or Collins and Taylor were relentless assaulters on offense, so I am hard pressed to call this "the pinnacle".

We took a big step.  Now getting it done against Texas is next, and then the next game.  I think once we get going again we are going to be a very wicked team to watch and play.

Systems are similiar thru out college basketball.  Screens, pick and rolls, isolations, and just plain beating your guy.  In a nutshell, systems are built around players.  Thus is why we don't run the Hi LO like we have.  Motion is the game plan.  Finding a mismatch.  Thats what all teams look to do.  The thing is, only the Elite teams have more luxuries in how and why they run certain sets. 

I agree with 2coach.  Some times you need that mega persona to overcome a bad game or bad stretches.  This team is lacking that. 

Well in this case the system is not built around our current set of players or it wouldn't be what it is. Though I don't really blame him for not completely changing the system just for this group of guys. I do know specifically Coach K changed what they did the year he had Irving...we haven't had that kind of player although Collins was in many ways that dynamic as a college player and who knows what Selby coud've been had things played out differently. It'd be interesting to see if we did get that kind of talent at pg, what Self would do.

But in general, yeah coaches recurit guys that fit their system. 

"I do know specifically Coach K changed what they did the year he had Irving..."

Stop. Kyrie Irving played ELEVEN games that year and when he was in, they ran the same stuff as before. IT just looks different when you have a better player running it. There's always a lot of "if you can" built into any system. IF a KU guard is able to get around his man, he is encouraged to do so.