Do you pay Joe top 5 QB money?

So I keep on going back and forth with this.  I say pay him top 5..................then I think no way.................then back to pay him.  Can the Ravens really justify giving him $100 million??

The first thing that comes to mind is his wins.  He has the most wins by any QB over the past 5 years.  All he does is lead this team to playoffs (and a SB).  His W/L record speaks for itself.

But then there is the "other" Joe.  His stats do not compete with the top QBs (Brady, Mannings, Rodgers, Brees).  Wins should be the bottom line in the NFL, right?  But how do you give him that money if he's not the best (individual stats).

And dont forget, there were times last year and this year, where people actually questioned if Joe was the franchise QB.  I cant say I was one of them - but there were some rumbles from fans.  When have you ever heard a NE, NY, Den, NO, or GB fan question whether or not their QB was their future.

Again, I cant figure this one out, and think it will be interesting to see how the front office gets this done.

Just thought it would be interesting to ask.

I honestly don't see how they can avoid it. Joe and his agent gambled big this past offseason and it worked in their favor. The Ravens front office is screwed any way they do it.

They can either pay him top 5 money; or slap a non-exclusive franchise tag on him for $14 mil and run the risk of losing him to another t eam willing to pony up two 1st round picks; or slap the exclusive franchise tag, pay him $20 mil and put off the inevitable for a year in the "hopes" that he what? Doesn't repeat this season's success? None of the Ravens brass really wants him to fail just so they can pay him less do they? lol 

His regular season stats may not be stellar, but I don't see how the Ravens can justify not paying him like a top 5 when "top 10" QBs like Philip Rivers get 7yr/$98 mil dollar deals and can barely sniff the playoffs, let alone win in them and bring home a SB. 

And dont forget, there were times last year and this year, where people actually questioned if Joe was the franchise QB.  I cant say I was one of them - but there were some rumbles from fans.  When have you ever heard a NE, NY, Den, NO, or GB fan question whether or not their QB was their future.

Some fans called for his head mid-season, I won't deny it because I saw it firsthand, but I knew even when he was in his slump that we would still have to pay him. The postseason just jacked the number up. He's good enough most times to be necessary, he's great enough some of the time to be a commodity.

His regular season stats may not be stellar, but I don't see how the Ravens can justify not paying him like a top 5 when "top 10" QBs like Philip Rivers get 7yr/$98 mil dollar deals and can barely sniff the playoffs, let alone win in them and bring home a SB

This is pretty much it.  People are saying "Flacco doesn't deserve $20M a year" and I agree, but he'll get it because other undeserving QBs have jacked up the going rate now.

Philip Rivers - 14M a year to constantly miss the playoffs.
Kevin Kob - 10M+ a year to get benched and not even sniff the playoffs
Ryan Fitzpatrick - 9M+ a year to stay at the bottom of the division 
Michael Vick - Had a 100M contract to just plain suck on a regular basis
Mark Sanchez - 11M+ a year to be the worst starting QB in the NFL, in my opinion  

So just by Rivers' numbers alone, you know anything below 17M is out.  Then you have the "elites".

Peyton Manning - Just shy of 20M a year, goes one and done for the 8th time in his 12 playoff appearances.  Same number of rings as Joe

Drew Brees - 20M a year and a losing record.  Has the same number of rings as Joe.    
    
No, I do NOT think Joe is better than either one of them but he's won more since 08 and matches their title wins.  The front office isn't going to care about stats.  They care about wins and fortunately for Joe, he's about as elite as they come in that category.  His playoff performance has been much better the last 3 seasons and he's currently sitting on top of the football world as the reigning superbowl MVP

They simply don't have much of a choice. 
  

Basically it breaks down to this: do the Ravens think Joe Flacco can consistently win games for the team. If so, then he's worth the top $$ and you can afford to loose some other peices because Joe can work with whatever he has and can elevate their game. If not, then you wouldn't be heart-broken to see him leave. I, personally, am of the first opinion. I think it is time to unleash Joe Flacco and let him carry the team. Let's be honest, the defense was not all that great this year WITH a bunch of the players we are afraid to let go of and the offense, more times than not, was able to overcome it. So, I am fine with letting go of some of the aging and/or expensive players on that side of the ball go(Lewis, Reed, Kruger, Williams specifically). I also wouldn't be terribly upset if they parted ways with Leach and Dickson. Leach is not really getting used enough to justify his salary and I like Pitta over Dickson, and think we can pick up a draft pick for Dickson since he is RFA. Now, I'm a little more hesitant to cut ties with Boldin and Jones, but if Joe's the QB I think he is, he can work with whatever receivers the Ravens have. I'd prefer to keep at least one, so that Flacco has a larger core group of receivers. I wouldn't be surprised to see Doss take on the Boldin role if Boldin is let go. I know he hasn't looked great catching the ball this year, but remember when we said the same thing about Torrey Smith? Doss was the better hands guy when we drafted them and I think he can still be that guy. Bottom line. I'd rather keep Joe and look for players to fill in other gaps, then let Joe go and try and find another QB somewhere... we waited 11 years to have a franchise QB. Do we really want to risk letting him go after 5 years and start the search all over again? I know this guy doesn't. I shudder at the thought. Gotta pay the man. 

Flacco will receive top dollar. No way around it. He rejected a 100 mil contract already. After winning a SB, winning an MVP, and basically carrying the team himself in the playoffs, there is no way he won't recieve top dollar. Whether he deserves it, or whether that kind of salary is justified doesn't matter and isn't an issue. The Ravens don't have the option of letting him hit FA and drafting another QB fotr the next several years. Its a QB driven league, and Flacco might even receieve substantially more elsewhere so the Ravens aren't going to be able to do much in terms of negotiating him down. The following seasons there will be other QBs with contracts expiring, who some may consider elite at that time, and they will recieve more than Flacco. Thats just the way it goes. Ed Reed got the best contract for a safety many years back, but a few years ago bums like Eric Berry received substantially more without ever playing in the NFL. Hopefully salary caps increase and we can manage the rest of our roster in the coming years.

Let's say pretend we give Joe Flacco a 5 year deal and his average annual salary makes him the 5th highest paid QB:

-After 1 year it is unlikely he will still be in the top 5.
-By the 5th year of the deal, it is unlikely that Joe would even be in the top 10 highest paid QBs.

It is not like the Ravens are going to redo Joe's contract every single year to make sure he is still in the top 5.  The reality is that your average salary should overpay you at the beginning of the contract.  A top 10 guy is going to get a top 5 contract.  A top 5 guy is going to get the #1 highest paid contract.

By the 5th year of the deal, it is unlikely that Joe would even be in the top 10 highest paid QBs.

I'm not so sure.  Are the Saints second guessing the deal they gave Brees?  Can the Packers afford to build around Aaron Rogers?  I'm wondering if those teams would make the same deal with one player or spend the money on defense instead.  Part of me thinks the owners are going to start to draw the line on handing out these ridiculous contracts to one player at the expense of the team.

The Ravens need to think about what is the best deal for the Ravens.  Handing over wads of cash to Flacco is a gamble.  He had a few games where his completion percentage was less than 50%.  What do they give up by handing over a sixth of the salary cap to one player?   Will the fans be happy if Flacco is one of the highest paid players but the team falls to last place in the division because they can't afford talent at other positions? Will my investment in season tickets be worth anything?

Look around the league.  Can you plug in a cheaper option and still win games?  Would the money be better spent building a shut down defense and a running game?  Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl.  Mark Rypien won a Super Bowl.  Some of the option QBs coming out of college are cheaper options.

I'm all for giving Flacco a fair deal.  One that doesn't break the bank or mortgage the future.  But if he insists on $20/per, then let some other team have him, destroy their competative balance, and hand over the two draft picks. 

Finding a good QB is by NO MEANS a gimmie in the NFL. Our Ravens suffered for almost a dozen seasons with sub-par QB play, outside of a good Steve McNair season until they found Joe.  Yes, Joe can be maddenly inconsistent. He can frustrate you with his play sometimes, but the fact remains that he has really picked his game up in the last 3 seasons. He proved he could beat the Steelers, and anyone else in front of him. He has cut down on his turnovers in the playoffs. What more can you ask for?

Do you wish to return to the days of Kyle Boller, Tony Banks, Eric Zeier, Chris Redman, Elvis Grbac, Stony Case, Scott Mitchell, Anthony Wright, or Jeff Blake? 

The QB's in this years draft are jokes for the most part. There might be 1 decent QB coming out that I have read about and the rest are all big ? marks.

The simple fact is the Ravens cannot afford to lose Joe. He will get a 5-6 year deal in excess of 110 million with a big signing bonus to make sure the first couple of years are pretty low base salary wise to help with the cap.

How many of this past season's playoff teams were not led by either a franchise QB or a QB still on his rookie contract?

I have said before and I will say it again, Joe Flacco will get paid. His performance this post season gauranteed he will be able to demand and will be the Highest Paid player at his position which means he will be the highest paid player in the NFL. 7 Years 140 Million with 50 million guranteed. You know what, 5 years down the road, we will be saying it was a bargain.

Cheers,

MDFan 

They don't have any choice, but to pay him.  I can see them doing a 10 year deal w/ a lot of guaranteed $$ and a lot backloaded to help with the cap.  Just b/c a deal may avg 19, 20 mil, doesn't mean it has the affect the cap the same way. 


That's what happens with these guys.  When there are less than 10 in the entire World and there are 32 teams, they get snagged up.  Don't think Cleveland would give up two 1st rounders (if he gets non-exclusive franchised), which would drastically change the division.  The good news is, these are the guys whose teams are winding up on top (minus the bountygate year), and we always have Ozzie filling in the other positions. 

How many of this past season's playoff teams were not led by either a franchise QB or a QB still on his rookie contract?


You can make an argument for Shaub.  Everyone else was rookie contract or top tier.

No, I do NOT think Joe is better than either one of them but he's won more since 08 and matches their title wins.  The front office isn't going to care about stats.  They care about wins and fortunately for Joe, he's about as elite as they come in that category.  His playoff performance has been much better the last 3 seasons and he's currently sitting on top of the football world as the reigning superbowl MVP

The stats are secondary. I do believe the Ravens front office will look at the entire body of work.

It's true Joe's won more games than any other QB in his first 5 years, the only QB to take his team to the playoffs 5 straight years at the beginning of his career, and there's little doubt he steps up his game in the playoffs.

I think that of the last three years, this is the least likely Ravens team to have made it to the Super Bowl and won, and the irony is that Joe had to do more this year to get them there than in years past.

In 2011, the defense held their own and Joe played his best at the right time, the playoffs. Losing the AFC championship on a dropped pass and missed FG after He had taken them the length of the field with time running out.  IMO, this was the year we should have gone more than any other.

In 2010, they had a brain fart in the divisional round against Pittsburgh and let them back into the game with turnovers in the 2nd half and a huge play at the end by the Squealers.  Had they held on and won that game, I think they would have beaten the Jets in the Championship.

Either way, the 2011 and 2010 teams were better defensively than the 2012 version, and Joe wasn't asked to do as much as often as this year.

Joe steps up his game in the post-season but has problems with consistency during the regular season.  Maybe this was because of Cameron, maybe not.  I guess we'll see next year.

But the front office surely realizes that, while Joe is a top 6 or 7 QB in this league, his performance, like all QB's, is dependant upon the team and players around him.  That and a certain amount of good fortune during the season.

Concievably, had the Ravens had that good fortune in 2011 and 2010, the Ravens may have been in the Super Bowl 3 years in a row and the question about whether Joe is elite would already be answered.

The question that wouldn't be answered, and in my mind, still isn't, is: how much of it was Joe and how much of it was the players around him and how much of it was just good fortune?

This year, more than any before, It was more on Flacco and he delivered.  I love his demeanor.  Nothing fazes him.  After a game you wouldn't know whether they won or lost by trying to read his face.

Pay the man.  It is inevitable

Right now Joe is top 5 behind Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers....and is expecting to be paid like them. I heard that they are looking at Manning money but the thing that is going to allow for other signings is guaranteed money....and it needs to be done before free agency opens up. I think right now both sides are doing some posturing to try and gain some momentum on public perception.....In the end Moriarty and Ozzie work out a fair deal that is cap friendly and allows them to sign some key components.

"The Ravens need to think about what is the best deal for the Ravens.  Handing over wads of cash to Flacco is a gamble."

You know we can debate all that... but the sad truth is that the Ravens just don't have a choice. A number of teams who don't have QBs would kill to have Flacco and gladly overpay to get him. If Flacco was under contract, teams would offer up all their draft picks to get him and then pay him a fat contract (e.g Jay Cutler). The Ravens have 2 choices, pay him top dollar or let him walk. The latter is just not an option. And after the playoff/superbowl performace...the ravens are at a disadvantage in terms of negotiations, Flacco has the upper hand and all that matters if Flacco himself is willing to take less money for the team (which I seriously doubt he would do...lets face it even I wouldnt do that after winning a SB and having a once in a lifetime chance to make the most money I ever could).

If the Ravens end up signing Joe for $18-19 million a year they have to consider it a big win on their part.  Lets all be honest, whatever Joe signs for there will be a Matt Ryan and Arron Rodger that will be signing for more in the next year at most so Joe's signing timing is fortunate for the Ravens.  If say a Matt Ryan signs for $20million a year, the same Matt Ryan who is garbage in the post season, that would basiclly force the Ravens hand into signing Joe for more or letting him walk.  Its the unfortunate side of the business but I'd rather pay Joe the money now and watch a team like the Falcons truely overpay for a QB who seems possed for regular season greatness while Joe continues his post-season imortality.  That $18-19 million a year will dissapate into a more regular pay scale in the next 3-5 years.  

The Ravens front office is screwed any way they do it. 

They can either pay him top 5 money; or slap a non-exclusive franchise tag on him for $14 mil and run the risk of losing him to another t eam willing to pony up two 1st round picks; or slap the exclusive franchise tag, pay him $20 mil and put off the inevitable for a year in the "hopes" that he what? Doesn't repeat this season's success? None of the Ravens brass really wants him to fail just so they can pay him less do they? lol

I wouldn;t say screwed.  I think that if they believe he's worth it they'll pay it.  It really depends on how far off Joe's agent is with their perceived value.  Remember that it not just Joe saying he's the best QB in the league.  The team pretty much thinks too having stood behind him for 5 years.  They just have to put a value on his worth.

Suppose they give him what he wants - $20-21M/yr.  They'll have to do without a LOT of other playmekers because of this, but it will only be because Ozzie and Bisciotti think he'll shoulder the team.  IF that happened I don't think it's something that Ozzie would enter into lightly as everyone here probablky does as well.  IN OZZIE WE TRUST!

If the Ravens end up signing Joe for $18-19 million a year they have to consider it a big win on their part.

I would consider that a great achievement by both parties.  For the Ravens in getting a great value for a guy commanding top 5 or even 3 money and for Joe for seeing theboigger picture - that a few mil that level isn't everything.  If he wasn't so worried about STATS being a mark of status, then perhaps he won;t need to be the highest paid QB on the NFL.  

Besides there are always bigger deals made that surpass the older ones because the benchmark has been move up a notch or two.    

Joe steps up his game in the post-season but has problems with consistency during the regular season.  Maybe this was because of Cameron, maybe not.  I guess we'll see next year.

But the front office surely realizes that, while Joe is a top 6 or 7 QB in this league, his performance, like all QB's, is dependant upon the team and players around him.  That and a certain amount of good fortune during the season

It's no surprise that Joe's improved performance coincided with the shuffle in the O-line and the play calling.  We've seen over the last couple years that if he has time he can shred a D.  But if the line isn't protecting and if Bolden isn't ripping passses out of the air, how successful is he?  Or any QB for that matter.  If the Ravens pay him $20 mil/per and can't afford the talent around him, do we have just another over priced QB on a mediocre team and we're locked in cap hell for the next 7 years?

If the Ravens pay him $20 mil/per and can't afford the talent around him, do we have just another over priced QB on a mediocre team and we're locked in cap hell for the next 7 years?

So you're saying that no team should ever offer a second contract to a QB, because essentially, if you have a franchise QB, you are going to have to pay them this kind of money to keep them, because someone else will gladly pay them that to take them off your hands. Us Ravens fans have not had to deal with paying a QB top dollar before, so I know it is going to take some time to get used to, but we absolutely cannot let Joe go and go through another QB carousel desperately trying to find the next Joe Flacco. Besides, if Joe's contract averages $20 mil a year, that does not mean he will actually hit the cap for that every year. These long term contracts are made up to be cap friendly over the first half and then you can look at restructuring/extending in the second half to buy some relief. Other teams have managed to hang on to a top dollar QB and still be successful. I am confident that we can as well.