How do you value Joe among all other QBs?

If all the starting QBs were free agents would you still take Joe?  Or would you grab some other QB mega-contract and all?

I ask because it is a good exercise to see what real value WE, as fans, place on Flacco.  Thus, we can better see if he really is a top 5 QB for the money.

I'll go first: 

I may take Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees over Joe and that's it.  Joe is in his prime with a lot of upside that has still yet to be seen.  He's durable and accurate now with th long ball.  He seems to have found his confidence and steady rapport with multiple receivers; he constantly hits 8 diffferent ones in a game.  It would be hard to argue that Brady and Peyton will still be playing 2-3 yrs from now.  Matt Ryan is the only QB with more regular season wins than Joe, but is not a "play-off player".   While a proven winner Ben Roethlisberger is too broken down.  Matthew Stafford is in his prime too, but is still inconsistent reminding me of Flacco from a few years back.  

To me that makes his value a top 3 really.  Top 5 money doesn;lt seem so bad now does it? (*kidding) 

If every single starting QB was a free agent this year, I would take Aaron Rogers ahead of Joe Flacco. I would at least CONSIDER taking Ben Rothlisberger  over Joe because they are in my mind similar in skll set but ultimately the fact that he is injury prone in addition to the fact that I would have to hold my nose while taking him gives Joe the edge in my mind. That is it. . Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady all MAY have better skills at the QB position (although I think the last two are debatable) but there ages make them much less desirable to me than Joe Flacco.

This should come as no surprise to anyone that has followed my statements about Joe. (Which I believe have been fairly consistent.) So I guess that means I think he is worth Top 2 money. Now I am reiterating once again. "Ozzie, just pay the man! 7 Years 20 million per year with 50 Million Guaranteed."

Cheers,

MDFan
Fan of the World Champion Baltimore Ravens 

I'll offer the perspoective of a neutral fan. You make a good point about Brady and Manning, as you would certainly have Flacco far longer than them.

Are we taking into account their current contracts (I'm thinking this is the case as you made mention of mega contracts) If so, I would  also strongly consider some of the much younger up-and-comers


Older, established QBs (I'd take over Flacco)
Roethlesberger - this is a close one for the reason you mentioned (injuries)
Eli Manning - no brainer for me
Rodgers - no brainer
Brees - no brainer
Ryan - no brainer for me, but I could see someone disagreeing


Younger, Up-and-comers (especially if contract is taken into account)    
RG3 - obviously depends on status of injury
Andrew Luck - no brainer for me
Kaepernick - too much upside to pass up  
Russel Wilson - see Kaepernick
Cam Newton - see Wilson.....though attitude would be a concern                   

Ryan - no brainer for me, but I could see someone disagreeing

I don't get the love for Ryan - at all. What has he done to deserve even a Top 10 ranking (which I see often)? He's been notoriously average in the playoffs - with untimely turnovers and he's throwing to three of the best receivers in the NFL. I think most people who hold him in high regard simply don't watch him enough. He had a great running game in his early years and he's had SIMPLY AWESOME targets in the latter years. And even with all those weapons he's consistently failed in big games. I don't see it all.

Confession: In real life (non-CBS) I applaud him every chance I get because it irritates the heck out of my Ravens friends!

I don't get the love for Ryan - at all. What has he done to deserve even a Top 10 ranking (which I see often)? He's been notoriously average in the playoffs

I tend to agree, but he has the most wins in the NFL since 2008 followed by Flacco and Brady at 54 a piece.  I also wouldn;t call him average in the play-offs ither .  A 1-5 record is not average in my book no matter his stat-line.  

I see he and Joe as two guys cut from the same cloth.  If Rayn had fallen to Baltimore, we may have hd the same debate on thse two in reverse.

I don't get the love for Ryan - at all. What has he done to deserve even a Top 10 ranking (which I see often)? He's been notoriously average in the playoffs - with untimely turnovers and he's throwing to three of the best receivers in the NFL. I think most people who hold him in high regard simply don't watch him enough. He had a great running game in his early years and he's had SIMPLY AWESOME targets in the latter years. And even with all those weapons he's consistently failed in big games. I don't see it all.


You really want to gauge him on 5 playoff games? Kind of a small sample size, isn't it? In his last one, he had a 114 rating and they lost. His fault? Personally, I think you are giving too much weight to Flacco's playoff success, especially this past season. Coming into the year, he had 8 TDs and 8 INTs in the playoff (1 and 6 his first 2 seasons).

And, it's not as though he is lacking for WRs. Before he came to Bmore, Boldin was every bit the WR Roddy White is.

Also,  is it possible his WRs have success because of Ryan? To me, it's the QB who makes the WRs. Not the other way around. White strikes me as someone who would succeed as long as his QB was at least decent. However, before they drafted Jones it was often said Ryan didn't have enough weapons. The guy became an immediate success as a rookie. Not easy for a WR.  


I'm thinking too much is being put into 4 games for Flacco, instead of gauging him on the other 80 he's played.    

1. Aaron Rodgers - Best QB  right now period
2. Tom Brady - Rings, Winner, consistency
3. Peyton Manning - Best pure QB since Marino
4. Drew Brees - This era's Brett Favre, fearless and not afraid to throw it anywhere despite the picks that ensue
5. Big Ben - Best QB at keeping plays alive, Bradshaw reincarnate
6. Joe Flacco - coming into his own, best deep bomber in the game right now
7. Eli Manning - good enough to win, maddenly inconsistent
8. Matt Ryan - very good QB, still needs to find that killer instinct in post-season
9. Colin Kaepernick - Best mobile QB right now
10. Matthew Stafford - another gunslinger, too many turnovers which kill his team though

11. Jay Cutler - Tough QB, but makes bone headed decisions that cost him wins
12. Andrew Luck - Up and comer, excellent rook season
13. RG III - Mobile QB with skills, arrow pointing up
14. Cam Newton - Mobile QB but questionable football IQ, can't read defenses well enough to win games
15. Andy Dalton - Good QB, questionable arm strength, could be this era's Chad Pennington.

You really want to gauge him on 5 playoff games? Kind of a small sample size, isn't it?

Not at all. What makes it small? Five games is a pattern in my book.

In his last one, he had a 114 rating and they lost. His fault?

Yeah his fault because in the 2nd half his rating was 63.4, he had a costly turnover and he generated 0 points.

Personally, I think you are giving too much weight to Flacco's playoff success, especially this past season. Coming into the year, he had 8 TDs and 8 INTs in the playoff (1 and 6 his first 2 seasons).

I actually never mentioned Flacco's playoff success. I can tell you without even looking that in one of his victories (2009) he was 4 for 10 with 40 yards and an INT - so I know all about his struggles his first 3 years. But he stepped up the last two seasons and was the reason the Ravens advanced and ultimately won a Super Bowl.

You can't take those away.

And, it's not as though he is lacking for WRs. Before he came to Bmore, Boldin was every bit the WR Roddy White is.

Well Boldin isn't that Boldin anymore and I don't see Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez running around in purple uniforms.

Also,  is it possible his WRs have success because of Ryan? To me, it's the QB who makes the WRs. Not the other way around.

You could make that argument unless you actually watched the Falcons and saw the ridiculous catches that trio of receivers make. If you're just looking for a reason to applaud Ryan I guess you could say anything.

I'm thinking too much is being put into 4 games for Flacco, instead of gauging him on the other 80 he's played.

I'm judging 5 seasons vs. 5 seasons - the whole package. And IMO it's not even close. And it wasn't close before Flacco won the Super Bowl. He has one of the best arms in football.

I'm judging 5 seasons vs. 5 seasons - the whole package. And IMO it's not even close. And it wasn't close before Flacco won the Super Bowl. He has one of the best arms in football. 

Look at Beach making all my arguments for me, This is why we can get along so well, He is an intellectually honest fan. I concur incidentally, whole heartedly, I don't think it is even close either. Matt Ryan disappears in big games in my opinion and Flacco flourishes. (To be fair, Joe has been down right bad. at certain points.) But I believe on the whole he has made the most progress of any QB in the last five years.

I want to address all those "Up and Coming QB's" that DT posted about. Of those QB's in my opinion ONLY Andrew Luck, has a CHANCE to be more effective than Flacco because all the others are rushing QB's that will be out for 4 to 6 games a year (Just look at Michael Vick since he returned to the league.) for that reason. Joe Flacco 93 Starts in the NFL after 5 years, More starts than any QB in that time frame. Staying healthy is a part of being a great QB and Joe stays healthy.

MDFan
Fan of the World Champion Baltimore Ravens

Kyreal, I think you forgot Russell Wilson.  And Matt Shaub, Carson Palmer, Alex Smith, Josh Freeman, Mike Vick, Tony Romo, and Phillip Rivers, but I assume those guys aren't in your top 15.

To be fair, Joe has been down right bad. at certain points

I won't argue that Joe has been bad at times.  But the new ESPN QBR is stupid.  Flacco has the 2 lowest ratings ever.  Both being under 1.  One week was against the Broncos.  He threw for 2 tds and over 250 yards but it was a rating under 1?  Yet that same week, Sanchez has a butt fumble and has a much higher rating.  Anyone who knows anything about football, knows that Flacco played better than Sanchez that week. 

Don't know where I would value Joe among all qbs right now.  I would put him at #1.  But only because he just won the Superbowl and because he's a Raven.

Russell Wilson is a QB I really like, I would put him right in there with Luck and RG3, but i did forget him.

As for Shaub,  hes an ok QB, but he chokes in the playoffs period. He makes multiple bad decisions in game that cost them big games. He has to improve.

Phillip Rivers a couple of years ago would have been in my Top 10, but he has seriously regressed the last 2 seasons to the point where he makes more mistakes than good drives.

Carson Palmer is a shell of his former self. His physical tools have diminished to the point that even the Raiders don't want his services now.

Alex Smith is a Trent Dilfer reinarnate. Nice Game manager but lacks the skills to consistently win although he has improved the last 2 seasons to the point where he could be a serviceable starter for someone.

Freeman is another decent QB but not good enough to crack the Top 15. His teams have talent but fail at getting to the playoffs.

Tony Romo is right there but his lack of getting his team to the playoffs is seriously holding him back.  He is a top flight fantasy QB for numbers but he simply chokes in big games. He has to turn it around to move up the list.

Mike Vick, a few years ago would be Top 10 but he is a turnover machine now and injury prone. Non-reliable at best.

You really want to gauge him on 5 playoff games? Kind of a small sample size, isn't it?

Not at all. What makes it small? Five games is a pattern in my book. 

As opposed to the other 80? You realize Manning has had some serious struggles in the playoffs, as well, correct? Want to dismiss him?

In his last one, he had a 114 rating and they lost. His fault?

Yeah his fault because in the 2nd half his rating was 63.4, he had a costly turnover and he generated 0 points. 

First half is as important as the second. Must mean he was unstoppable that hal, right? Can't recall the game, but possible WRs let him down, didn't get blocking? Again, I'm not saying it did, as I don't recall. Either way, it's one half of one game. And while awful, there have been far worse performances in the playoffs by QBs who won.

Personally, I think you are giving too much weight to Flacco's playoff success, especially this past season. Coming into the year, he had 8 TDs and 8 INTs in the playoff (1 and 6 his first 2 seasons).

I actually never mentioned Flacco's playoff success. I can tell you without even looking that in one of his victories (2009) he was 4 for 10 with 40 yards and an INT - so I know all about his struggles his first 3 years. But he stepped up the last two seasons and was the reason the Ravens advanced and ultimately won a Super Bowl. 

Truth be told, I'd say the Denver DB was as much a reason as Flacco you found your team in the SB. He should get a ring. You really want to credit Flacco for that throw?

And, it's not as though he is lacking for WRs. Before he came to Bmore, Boldin was every bit the WR Roddy White is.

Well Boldin isn't that Boldin anymore and I don't see Julio Jones and Tony Gonzalez running around in purple uniforms. 

So Boldin isn't the same Boldin, but you think Gonzo is the same as he was in KC? And T. Smith is at worst a solid WR. Do you not allow for the possibility Ryan is extremely important in their success. Know many other WRs who had the success Jones did as a rookie?

Also,  is it possible his WRs have success because of Ryan? To me, it's the QB who makes the WRs. Not the other way around. <span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: #000000; font-style: normal;">You could make that argument unless you actually watched the Falcons and saw the ridiculous catches that trio of receivers make. If you're just looking for a reason to applaud Ryan I guess you could say anything. 

Are you suggesting Flacco is not helped by some of the ones Boldin picks out of the air? He's no slouch, ya know? 

I'm thinking too much is being put into 4 games for Flacco, instead of gauging him on the other 80 he's played.

I'm judging 5 seasons vs. 5 seasons - the whole package. And IMO it's not even close. And it wasn't close before Flacco won the Super Bowl. He has one of the best arms in football. 

Then you think it's an accident Flacco is suddenly being mentioned as one of the top guys now? Why was he never in the conversation before these "5 games"? Hope he also sends some cash to Moore, of Denver.

I'm judging 5 seasons vs. 5 seasons - the whole package. And IMO it's not even close. And it wasn't close before Flacco won the Super Bowl. He has one of the best arms in football. 

Look at Beach making all my arguments for me, This is why we can get along so well, He is an intellectually honest fan. I concur incidentally, whole heartedly, I don't think it is even close either. Matt Ryan disappears in big games in my opinion and Flacco flourishes. (To be fair, Joe has been down right bad. at certain points.) But I believe on the whole he has made the most progress of any QB in the last five years.

Know who else was known to disappear in big games? Name rhymes with Schmeyton Lanning. Is Joe better than he was, as well? Joe also has disappeared in a few big games, but somehow the rest of his team picked him up. He had one playoff game that was worse than any Ryan played, but the Ravens won the game And, it could be argued Ryan's most recent playoff game was better than any Flacco has played, but his team lost.

And, of course, we owe one playoff win to Moore of Denver. Any other DB on that play sends the ravens home after the Divisional round and we aren't having this discussion.

I want to address all those "Up and Coming QB's" that DT posted about. Of those QB's in my opinion ONLY Andrew Luck, has a CHANCE to be more effective than Flacco because all the others are rushing QB's that will be out for 4 to 6 games a year (Just look at Michael Vick since he returned to the league.) for that reason. Joe Flacco 93 Starts in the NFL after 5 years, More starts than any QB in that time frame. Staying healthy is a part of being a great QB and Joe stays healthy.

I somewhat agree. Hesitation is those guys can also throw, and might adjust their game as their ability to run isn't what it is now. Could they get hurt more easily? Sure, but also possible they wont. Can't recall Newton missing much time in his first couple years. 

If he shows he is healthy, how quickly do you think Ozzie would say yes if they offered RG3 for Flacco? 

Well would you look at this.  A Steelers fana and a Browns fan debating about the Ravens QB. 

I love it. 

   

As opposed to the other 80? You realize Manning has had some serious struggles in the playoffs, as well, correct? Want to dismiss him?

Actually I have on numerous occasions. I've never let his regular season numbers blind me. When you're playing in a cool 70 degrees in November and December every year, you get to throw it 550 times a season and you have a GM who routinely drafts / signs / trades for offensive talent to fit your offense you better produce at the level he did.

I've never been a big Peyton fan because he has routinely crapped the bed in the postseason. His only ring came during a postseason where he threw 7 INTs to 3 TDs. His defense absolutely carried him - giving up 4 TDs in 4 games. Once again show me where I put Peyton Manning on a pedestal.

First half is as important as the second. Must mean he was unstoppable that hal, right? Can't recall the game, but possible WRs let him down, didn't get blocking? Again, I'm not saying it did, as I don't recall. Either way, it's one half of one game. And while awful, there have been far worse performances in the playoffs by QBs who won.

You can't recall the NFC Championship game from 4 weeks ago but you're using his performance that game to make your argument? Why are we discussing the game if you don't remember it? How about he week before when he almost choked the game away with another terrible half? Remember that one? Cause I do which is why I'm calling your Ryan > Flacco post nonsense. But if you don't remember his play I'm not sure how we can have an intelligent conversation.

Truth be told, I'd say the Denver DB was as much a reason as Flacco you found your team in the SB. He should get a ring. You really want to credit Flacco for that throw?

I'm not a Ravens fan and it was a bonehead play by Moore. Those things happen in football games and Joe did everything he could do to win the football game - he put the ball on the money all day, put points on the board and didn't make any mistakes.

So Boldin isn't the same Boldin, but you think Gonzo is the same as he was in KC? And T. Smith is at worst a solid WR. Do you not allow for the possibility Ryan is extremely important in their success.

Actually yes but then again I've actually watched Gonzo play. He had an amazing season - top 5 in his career. I can't explain it and he certainly doesn't get the separation he used to but he catches everything. Torrey Smith is developing, Julio Jones is a Top 10 NFL WR right now. They don't compare and Torrey will never be 6'3", 220lbs.

Know many other WRs who had the success Jones did as a rookie?

A few, yes and it's not because they had a great QB. It's because they are incredibly talented. Shall we put Andy Dalton ahead of Flacco too? A.J. Green is better than all of them. Has to be Andy's doing right?

Are you suggesting Flacco is not helped by some of the ones Boldin picks out of the air? He's no slouch, ya know?

Of course he is but I don't see your point. Every QB benefits by the play of others but few have the weapons Ryan has and he still routinely fails in big games.

Then you think it's an accident Flacco is suddenly being mentioned as one of the top guys now? Why was he never in the conversation before these "5 games"? Hope he also sends some cash to Moore, of Denver.

Because he was never a Super Bowl MVP who played at a level only one QB (Montana) in history has in a playoff run. Eli was pretty much considered a bust until he won his ring. Then he won another and they started talking Hall of Fame. Rings matter whether you agree that they should or not.

Trent Dilfer comment in 3, 2, 1 ...

I'll one-up a Trent Dilfer comment. Dennis Dixon has 2 rings. 1st ballot HOFer.

Don't be surprised if you see Dennis Dixon starting for the Eagles next season. Chip Kelly has loved the guy since college and just signed him for 2 years.  Low risk- high reward. Will be interesting to see what happens in camp.

I don't get the love for Ryan - at all. What has he done to deserve even a Top 10 ranking (which I see often)? He's been notoriously average in the playoffs - with untimely turnovers and he's throwing to three of the best receivers in the NFL. I think most people who hold him in high regard simply don't watch him enough. He had a great running game in his early years and he's had SIMPLY AWESOME targets in the latter years. And even with all those weapons he's consistently failed in big games. I don't see it all.

Could not have put it better myself.

2k

As opposed to the other 80? You realize Manning has had some serious struggles in the playoffs, as well, correct? Want to dismiss him?

Actually I have on numerous occasions. I've never let his regular season numbers blind me. When you're playing in a cool 70 degrees in November and December every year, you get to throw it 550 times a season and you have a GM who routinely drafts / signs / trades for offensive talent to fit your offense you better produce at the level he did. 

I've never been a big Peyton fan because he has routinely crapped the bed in the postseason. His only ring came during a postseason where he threw 7 INTs to 3 TDs. His defense absolutely carried him - giving up 4 TDs in 4 games. Once again show me where I put Peyton Manning on a pedestal. 

This comment tells me what I need to know. The simple fact you give more weight to 10 or so games over 150. His team acquired talent for him? This has to be a joke. You think it's an accident every WR they brought in put up great numbers? This may sound crazy, but do you suppose it might be BECAUSE of Manning? You must think it was an accident Thomas and Decker performed far better than they have in the past, as well.

Do you also believe it's an accident many of the WRs who wind up in GB, NO and NE excel, as well?

First half is as important as the second. Must mean he was unstoppable that hal, right? Can't recall the game, but possible WRs let him down, didn't get blocking? Again, I'm not saying it did, as I don't recall. Either way, it's one half of one game. And while awful, there have been far worse performances in the playoffs by QBs who won.

You can't recall the NFC Championship game from 4 weeks ago but you're using his performance that game to make your argument? Why are we discussing the game if you don't remember it? How about he week before when he almost choked the game away with another terrible half? Remember that one? Cause I do which is why I'm calling your Ryan > Flacco post nonsense. But if you don't remember his play I'm not sure how we can have an intelligent conversation. 

Guess I'm guilty as I didn't chart the second half of the game (or the first). Should have known I'd be having a debate about Matt Ryan a few weeks later. Silly me. You are the one who claimed he had the awful 2nd half, so I assumed you must have had more than the numbers to back it up. If not, then  let's just go by the numbers he had for the game. You can choose.

Truth be told, I'd say the Denver DB was as much a reason as Flacco you found your team in the SB. He should get a ring. You really want to credit Flacco for that throw?

I'm not a Ravens fan and it was a bonehead play by Moore. Those things happen in football games and Joe did everything he could do to win the football game - he put the ball on the money all day, put points on the board and didn't make any mistakes. 

Exactly, things happen. Those kind of things also might have happened to Ryan in the 2nd half against SF. Maybe a tipped ball, a wrong route, who knows? You seem to pretend to be the expert, so I assumed you had the game film and could tell me.

All that said, without "that thing" happening, we are not discussing Joe Flacco.

So Boldin isn't the same Boldin, but you think Gonzo is the same as he was in KC? And T. Smith is at worst a solid WR. Do you not allow for the possibility Ryan is extremely important in their success. 

Actually yes but then again I've actually watched Gonzo play. He had an amazing season - top 5 in his career. I can't explain it and he certainly doesn't get the separation he used to but he catches everything. Torrey Smith is developing,Julio Jones is a Top 10 NFL WR right now. They don't compare and Torrey will never be 6'3", 220lbs. 

So if I have this straight, you are saying Boldin is not the same Boldin, I assume because of age, but out of the other side of your mouth are saying Gonzo got better with age.

Got it.

Know many other WRs who had the success Jones did as a rookie?

A few, yes and it's not because they had a great QB. It's because they are incredibly talented. Shall we put Andy Daltonahead of Flacco too? A.J. Green is better than all of them. Has to be Andy's doing right? 

Never said it was all Ryan's doing, only that he might have had something to do with it. Go ahead and put AJ or Julio on the Browns and see what they do. Think you might see the same thing you did when Randy Moss went to Oakland.

Are you suggesting Flacco is not helped by some of the ones Boldin picks out of the air? He's no slouch, ya know?

Of course he is but I don't see your point. Every QB benefits by the play of others but few have the weapons Ryan has and he still routinely fails in big games. 

So you are like most sheep. I get it. A team wins, credit the QB. He loses, and it must be the QB's fault. Say no more. I would also say Flacco has the superior runner at his disposal. There's no Ray Rice in atlanta, especially the past couple years wen Turner was maddeningly inconsistent.

does Atlanta have a good running game? Sure, but one might think Ryan has to do with tha, as a team cannot stack the line with him at QB

Then you think it's an accident Flacco is suddenly being mentioned as one of the top guys now? Why was he never in the conversation before these "5 games"? Hope he also sends some cash to Moore, of Denver.

Because he was never a Super Bowl MVP who played at a level only one QB (Montana) in history has in a playoff run. Eli was pretty much considered a bust until he won his ring. Then he won another and they started talking Hall of Fame. Rings matter whether you agree that they should or not. 

Trent Dilfer comment in 3, 2, 1 ...

Rings matter to those who don't know any better, and your Dilfer ( I'm a slow typer so it took 15 seconds) comment is too easy. Or we could mention the ringless stiff, Dan Marino. Let's also remember that Moore guy. without him playing that ball worse than I would have, Flacco is like any other QB who went out in round 2 of the playoffs and didn't have a ring.

Are you also coach guy, too? Team wins, credit the coach, lose and it must be his fault? 

 don't get the love for Ryan - at all. What has he done to deserve even a Top 10 ranking (which I see often)? He's been notoriously average in the playoffs - with untimely turnovers and he's throwing to three of the best receivers in the NFL. I think most people who hold him in high regard simply don't watch him enough. He had a great running game in his early years and he's had SIMPLY AWESOME targets in the latter years. And even with all those weapons he's consistently failed in big games. I don't see it all.

Could not have put it better myself.

2k

Not a surprise, as most are coach/QB guy. Credit them for wins, blame them for the losses. And only them. I've even seen Manning take more heat when he clearly did enough to lead Denver to a win against Flacco, and the Ravens. But, because Moore decided to play that ball like he was in Peewee league, it must be Manning's fault, and Flacco moves up a notch.