OT definitely in play at #5

Warmack is considered by many to be the best prospect in the entire draft.  The only reason he isn't being considered #1 overall is because he plays Guard and it isn't a position that is ever drafted at the top of the draft.  But as you said -- the Lions draft the BPA.

And the other two names that are being thrown arond a lot as the top prospect in the draft are Joeckel and Fisher. 

So I'll apply your logic to either of those two as well. If it makes sense to take Warmack if he's the top player, then it certainly makes sense to take a left tackle if he's the top player, right?

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THAT is why I said Warmack should be the choice, because he will almost certainly be the BPA when the Lions draft.

<span style="color: #333333;">What makes you think he'll almost certainly be the top player? What if Fisher or Joeckel are there still at #5?
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The Lions drafted Reiff to be their left tackle of the future.  We've heard it many times on this board from the fans.  Now we are talking about moving him to Guard.  Are you telling me a 1st round pick can't beat out a 35 year old LT?!?

<span style="color: #333333;">No, what I'm telling you, again (but you refuse to acknowledge(sp) it), is that the Lions are looking at moving him to RG if they're able to draft one of the stud LTs available in this draft.

I don't know where you guys are coming up with the idea that they're thinking of moving him to guard for performance issues?

You get up in arms when we point out how negative you always are, but you sure are quick to jump to conclusions and turn a vague tweet into the worst case scenario. You seem to be an intelligent, educated, dude, but you've been acting pretty irrational these last couple weeks with the whole draft debate and stuff- you seem pretty intolerant of other ideas and opinions lately.

For example:

You want Milliner pretty badly with the #5 pick. I'd love Milliner with the #5 pick. 

I want Fisher pretty badly with the #5 pick. You'd love Milliner with the #5 pick.

There's definitely wrong answers with that pick, but I feel like there's several right answers... Milliner, Joeckel, Fisher, Warmack and Ansah all seem to be high-upside stud prospects who could be plugged in imediately to fill holes at CB, DE or RG. 

FUCK****ING CBS!

I'm re-posting that whole thing, damnit! I'll even apologize on behalf of CBS and their apparent apathy towards the products and services that carry their name... 

Warmack is considered by many to be the best prospect in the entire draft.  The only reason he isn't being considered #1 overall is because he plays Guard and it isn't a position that is ever drafted at the top of the draft.  But as you said -- the Lions draft the BPA

And the other two names that are being thrown arond a lot as the top prospect in the draft are Joeckel and Fisher. 

So I'll apply your logic to either of those two as well. If it makes sense to take Warmack if he's the top player, then it certainly makes sense to take a left tackle if he's the top player, right?

What makes you think he'll almost certainly be the top player? What if Fisher or Joeckel are there still at #5?

The Lions drafted Reiff to be their left tackle of the future.  We've heard it many times on this board from the fans.  Now we are talking about moving him to Guard.  Are you telling me a 1st round pick can't beat out a 35 year old LT?!?

No, what I'm telling you, again (but you refuse to acknowledge(sp) it), is that the Lions are looking at moving him to RG if they're able to draft one of the stud LTs available in this draft. 

I don't know where you guys are coming up with the idea that they're thinking of moving him to guard for performance issues? 

You get up in arms when we point out how negative you always are, but you sure are quick to jump to conclusions and turn a vague tweet into the worst case scenario. You seem to be an intelligent, educated, dude, but you've been acting pretty irrational these last couple weeks with the whole draft debate and stuff- you seem pretty intolerant of other ideas and opinions lately.

For example:

You want Milliner pretty badly with the #5 pick. I'd love Milliner with the #5 pick. 

I want Fisher pretty badly with the #5 pick. You'd love Milliner with the #5 pick.

There's definitely wrong answers with that pick, but I feel like there's several right answers... Milliner, Joeckel, Fisher, Warmack and Ansah all seem to be high-upside stud prospects who could be plugged in imediately to fill holes at CB, DE or RG. 

If I am wrong -- feel free to tell me.  How many games did Reiff start on the offensive line?  How many plays a game did he play on the offensive line?  He was used a 6th offensive linemen in a few packages.  That is it.

It depends on if you want to call his position a TE or an extra o-lineman. Since you called him an extra o-lineman in those packages that's what I'll roll with.

That "jumbo" package was used far more often than you seem to be remembering (convient for your argument, of course). Reiff started 8 games this year (1 at LT, 7 as the extra lineman) and played in all 16. The first couple of games he only played on special teams if I remember correctly, but once we set up that jumbo package it was used regularly for the rest of the season. 

I'm not sure what you rember watching last season, but you're selling his playing time way short. 

I will say this about drafting a LT:

If Mayhew decides to go that route and draft a LT at #5, he had better put up a great free-agency and draft really well for the remainder of the draft or he will continue to be criticized by fans, GM's and analyst. Without downgrading any of the top T's, they probably will raise the question as to why Mayhew would do such a thing being that Rieff was taken last year for the same role. Even though a LT would be a solid pick, the Lions really dont have luxury to go fooling around with too much outside of the defense if they want to win in this league. 

There is no such thing as a luxury pick, if you talk to fans on this board.  I do agree, it was a luxury pick and it worked out well for the Lions as they played great in 2012 and obviously didn't need help anywhere.

It worked out as well as the other luxury picks, like Titus Young and Ryan Broyles. 

The term "luxury pick" is just something made up by fans to define a pick they don't agree with when they think we have bigger needs elsewhere. 

 

Personally, I don't think it is going to matter with Fisher or Joeckel.  I just cannot see the Lions spending another pick on an OL 

Based on what?! Mayhew's history of drafting to fill holes?

Based on what?! Mayhew's history of drafting to fill holes?

I would base it upon the fact the Lions can field an offensive line with Reiff, Hillyard, Raiola, Sims, Nagy. Not the greatest but one that looks somewhat like a unit and I am not even including Fox.

The Lions can't field a viable defensive End Unit with just Willie Young, who isn't a vialble starter in my opinion. The fact the Lions only have two LBs that are NFL starting caliber, and they don't have a safety unt worth spit.


The other issue I keep wndering why the talk of mving Reiff inside if we draft Joeckel or Fisher. I would think it would make more sense to just move Reiff to RT and not resign Backus or Godsur. Save money and let him play a position he has for the last 5 years. Or are we resigning Backus and deciding on Fisher or Joeckel to RT?

 

The term "luxury pick" is just something made up by fans to define a pick they don't agree with when they think we have bigger needs elsewhere. 

Fair eneough but the same can be said of best player available! It's just General Manager speak for saying the guy I took was the best player so don't argue or second guess the selection.

And it's all good TPaul I like the discussions when we don't all agree! It's a problem when it gets personel when you can't argue a position so you trash the poster! And I am not talking about you, I find I have t start giving disclaimers when talking about the draft as we tend to get somewhat hostile with each other! 

I would base it upon the fact the Lions can field an offensive line with Reiff, Hillyard, Raiola, Sims, Nagy. Not the greatest but one that looks somewhat like a unit and I am not even including Fox.

The Lions can't field a viable defensive End Unit with just Willie Young, who isn't a vialble starter in my opinion. The fact the Lions only have two LBs that are NFL starting caliber, and they don't have a safety unt worth spit.

The problem with that theory is that you're looking at needs to try to determine who we will draft.

The other issue I keep wndering why the talk of mving Reiff inside if we draft Joeckel or Fisher. I would think it would make more sense to just move Reiff to RT and not resign Backus or Godsur. Save money and let him play a position he has for the last 5 years

The talk of moving Reiff in to guard (if, and only if, we draft a LT at #5) is because we have two good candidates to play RT (Fox and Reiff) but nobody at RG. Reiff profiles well as an interior lineman, better than FOx does, so he's the logical one to move out of the two of them. 

Basically, if we draft Joeckel or Fisher we'd have 3 stating-caliber OTs. One of which could be used to plug a big hole at RG. Simple, really... 

Fair eneough but the same can be said of best player available!

The difference is that one is a term made up by the fans. The other is an actual term used to describe the way the majority of the teams in the NFL approach the draft...

And it's all good TPaul I like the discussions when we don't all agree! It's a problem when it gets personel when you can't argue a position so you trash the poster! And I am not talking about you, I find I have t start giving disclaimers when talking about the draft as we tend to get somewhat hostile with each other! 

5 stars for that one. Totally agree...

The problem with that theory is that you're looking at needs to try to determine who we will draft.

Actually I am looking at it as their is about 3-7 players who all grade out about the same and I probably could argue that all of the consensus top 10 would grade out about the same. As much as thats my opinion it is in lock step with almost everyone I read and hear that I think is solid at talent evaluations. At that point it's subjective and Mayhew gets his BPA appoach.


The talk of moving Reiff in to guard (if, and only if, we draft a LT at #5) is because we have two good candidates to play RT (Fox and Reiff) but nobody at RG.

Nagy has been mentioned as a guard prospect that we thought highly of to the point we paid him on IR last year. He can play both center and Guard and I will just gloss over Austin. 


Basically, if we draft Joeckel or Fisher we'd have 3 stating-caliber OTs. One of which could be used to plug a big hole at RG. Simple, really... 

and yet not one starting DE signed or the OLB addressed. When Jones is mentioned as the best player in the draft he is in play for OLB. Dee Milliner as the best DB, Moore, Werner, Womack, Mingo all guys that grade out and get mentioned in the same tier as Joeckel and Fisher.  

The difference is that one is a term made up by the fans. The other is an actual term used to describe the way the majority of the teams in the NFL approach the draft...

BPA as used by Mayhew is would fall into a subjective black hole IMO. If you can't be held accountable you get ten plus years of Matt Millen. When Mayhew uses BPA I see misdirection and spin. I will not even argue hitting on a late round piack I just want him to hit on second round picks.

Nagy has been mentioned as a guard prospect that we thought highly of to the point we paid him on IR last year. He can play both center and Guard and I will just gloss over Austin.

It looks like they have Nagy earmarked for center. Reports around the time of Railoa's re-structuring were that Nagy and Dom will compete for the starting spot this year. Dom's new contract makes it so that he can be cut without absorbing a big cap hit this year.

It sounds like they think pretty highly of Austin, but he's so raw that they may want to slide him into a back-up role before commiting to letting him compete for a starting role. He looks like he might be an asset for us within a few years, though. 

and yet not one starting DE signed or the OLB addressed. When Jones is mentioned as the best player in the draft he is in play for OLB. Dee Milliner as the best DB, Moore, Werner, Womack, Mingo all guys that grade out and get mentioned in the same tier as Joeckel and Fisher.

 I won't disagree with any of that... all of those guys look to be in play at the #5 pick. All I was saying is not to let need sway your thought process when trying to peg whom we will draft at #5. We have enough needs that all those positions are equally feasable, but eliminating a tackle from the discussion because of bigger needs at DE is unwise.

As for OLB, we re-signed Levy to man one spot, and we have a trio of young guys expected to compete for the other spot (if we don't draft Jarvis Jones). 

The difference is that one is a term made up by the fans. The other is an actual term used to describe the way the majority of the teams in the NFL approach the draft...

Luxury pick isn't a term made up by fans.  They use the term quite often during the draft coverage each year.  Just one example, San Francisco's 1st pick last year -- AJ Jenkins, I believe was his name.  They called it a luxury pick, as the 49ers didn't have any holes to fill and they could draft player to groom with one of their top picks.

That is why it cracks me that SF has FIFTEEN draft picks this year, one year removed from almost winning the Super Bowl.  They could trade away their top 3 picks to move up in the 1st round and STILL have 12 picks left.  That is just crazy.

 

It looks like they have Nagy earmarked for center. Reports around the time of Railoa's re-structuring were that Nagy and Dom will compete for the starting spot this year. 

Raiola signing for an affordable contract pretty much puts him in place to be the stater this season, probably his last. I still think the Lions are likely to use Nagy at guard than Reiff. They paid his salary last year on IR just to get him from the Cowboys. I can't see that type of commitment to make him a backup. 

So in theory a line of Backus, Sims, Raiola, Nagy, and Reiff is a wash or slight upgrade in my thinking. That leaves Fox, Austin, and Hilyard as the depth. Save by letting Godsur walk and I would be hard pressed to address the line. In this scenerio you are already replacing two starters and I would not want to try replacing three starters by letting Backus walk if the Lions even have a choice. And I just can't see drafting a OT if Backus comes back.

The thing that isn't or hasn't really been addressed is neither Joeckel of Fisher fall into that must have OT tier. I would not classify either as a Joe Thomas or Jake Long draft status. Both good, both best in this class but neither must have guys. Thats why the top of the draft is so iffy the grades are all comparable. Which really sucks for KC and Jacksonville. Just think last year you had Luck, RG3, Khalil, Kilpatrick, and a few others that would be hnds down #1 overall types.

JDW126: and not resign Backus or Godsur. Save money and let him play a position he has for the last 5 years. Or are we resigning Backus and deciding on Fisher or Joeckel to RT?

Backus is under contract for 2013.

MikeD5405: You make the statement that most teams won't start rookies on the Offensive Line.

No clause with that? ...like maybe "unless they had too." It was right there in my statement your hounding me about. I jacked your 10 examples up and now you can't grasp or admit the double standards your using between Reiff and your examples. Your examples beat out backups for the starting position which the positions were already open in almost every one of 'em. Without the huge Rookie contracts these days, perhaps with the new salary scale comes a new trend.

Raiola signing for an affordable contract pretty much puts him in place to be the stater this season, probably his last.

That's what I thought too, but they reported that it's structured as such that it makes it easy to cut him if Nagy beats him out. They said this will be the first year in a long time that there will be open competition for the center spot...

 I would not classify either as a Joe Thomas or Jake Long draft status. Both good, both best in this class but neither must have guys.

The draft pundits would disagree with you there. They have both guys in the Joe Thomas range coming out. I would hope both guys are better than Long, if they're being drafted that high. He had a few good years and then washed out big-time. Maybe he'll regain his old form, but he's cost himself a ton of money with his play over the last two seasons...

Here's a good article from Mlvie that discusses our situation on the o-line. He talks about a lot of the stuff we've been debating on this thread:

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ss
f/2013/03/detroit_lions_2013_free_a
gency_2.html