2009 Steelers Draft and Mel Kiper Sucks Thread

Here's an early list of my top 25 OLBs that I'll be taking a closer look at:

Jarvis Jones* No real chance at drafting this guy, although we thought the same of David DeCastro.
Damontre Moore* Ditto
Bjoern Werner* More of a 4-3 DE
Sam Montgomery
Barkevious Mingo* project
Dion Jordan
Alex Okafor
Anthony Barr
Trent Murphy
Corey Lemonier* project
Chase Thomas
Tank Carradine* risk (no relation to David Carradine)
Sean Porter
Brandon Jenkins* risk
Trevardo Williams* Nybites: you've seen this kid in action as a Husky.  What's your take?
Travis Long
Quanterus Smith
Jackson Jeffcoat* risk
Michael Buchanan* project
Stansly Maponga* project
Wes Horton
Aaron Donald
Ron Powell* risk
Dan Giordano
Nathan Williams

I think Wallace's vaginal injury lasted for more than one game though.

This is a must item in the "Things I Wonder" thread next week.

I'm confused about this whole Girlfriend thing.

Me too a little bit. Not sure of the whole story but it looks to be a made up girlfriend that really didnt exist that was reported, announced, or blogged to have had some trajic accident. There is still an ongong investigation on who made up the story.

trajic 

tragic not trajic

This message has been removed by the administrator.

SK,

Two guys I think are in the disucssion at OLB in round two. John Simon and Kasheem Greene.

nyb

Noted.  I haven't delved too deeply into all the tweeners yet.  What's your take on Trevardo Williams out of UCONN?

SK,
 Jamie Collins, Southern Miss, 6-3 240 I dont know if you left him out on purpose or not but he has the frame and quickness IMO.

SK,

Anthony Barr I believe is returning to UCLA next year, and hasn't declared.

Belvedere,

There's a FB that says this girl is real, or was?

[http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co
m/2013/01/16/reagan-mauia-says-lenn
ay-kekua-is-real/]

Hey guys remember there is another collegiate bowl game being played this weekend, the NFLPA bowl game will be aired on ESPNU at 6:00 on the 19th. Here is some of the players to look out for.

1. Ray Ray Armstrong, S, Miami (FL)
After (unfairly) being forced out of Miami, the NCAA, and even the NAIA this year due to a minor infraction at Miami, Armstrong has been out of football all year long. Coming into the year, many (including myself) thought he had a chance at the 2^nd round, maybe even higher if he impressed. But after moving to the NAIA Faulkner, staying in shape and active with their football team, Armstrong may have a coming-out party and get back on NFL radars.

2. Xavier Boyce, WR, Norfolk State
In my HBCU scouting in the pre-season and during the year, Boyce consistently impressed despite being consistently double and shadow covered. His stats don’t wow, but his size and ability to play away from his body show all the signs of a late round steal. He should pass the eye test, and if the former Virginia Tech transfer shows the desire to be great, I wouldn’t rule out him having a long NFL career as an outside receiver.

3. Bruce Taylor, LB, Virginia Tech
One of my favorite linebackers in this draft, Taylor could go as high as the 2^nd round based on his versatility at linebacker, development as a coverage linebacker, and range on the inside or out. He could play inside or out in the NFL depending on the system, and a good week here could propel him to rely on adequate NFL Combine times to be a Top 100 pick.

4. Brad Sorensen, QB, Southern Utah
Coming into the year, Sorensen was thought highly by NFL teams, even as a 2^nd or 3^rd round prospect. He struggled mightily with his ball placement this year and didn’t show the ability to consistently handle pressure, two scary attributes to have attached to your name. Still, his natural arm and athleticism, flashes of brilliance, and upside as a developmental quarterback could make him a mid-late rounder again, especially if he can impress this week.

5. Robbie Rouse, RB, Fresno State
The quick, laterally explosive, and decisive up-and-through runners in the 2013 draft, Rouse should be able to really dominate the running back competition this week. Teams will still worry about his plethora of career carries, but if he can impress enough in workouts (and at the NFL Combine, most importantly), he could still wind up in the Top 120 picks.

6. Demetrius McCray, CB, Appalachian State
McCray coming into this year was a 5^th -6^th round prospect, but after not being consistently targeted and not as dominant as he was in years past (controlled Elon’s Aaron Mellette at times in their match-up in 2011). McCray is the clear-cut top cornerback, but he’ll have challenges at receiver this week. If he can impress (which I expect), he could move himself up to the safe draft area.

7. Jeff Nady, OT, Nevada
By far the best offensive linemen here, Nady has the size (6’7) to potentially fill in even at left tackle long term in the NFL. More likely a right tackle prospect in the NFL, he should dominate this week (few talented pass rushers) and move himself closer to the top five rounds if he plays well.

8. Nate Palmer, DE/LB, Illinois State
A likely 3-4 OLB convert, the 6'3, 240 pound edge setting, tackle finisher likely will have a place in the NFL, at least initially, thanks to his upside as an edge player. With ideal size, long arms, and pass rush moves to develop, he could utilize the lackluster offensive tackle crop to impress NFL teams throughout the week.

9. Sam McGuffie, RB/WR, Rice
The former highlight reel high schooler turned Michigan top recruit, McGuffie landed and has been lying dormant at Rice University these past two years. While he doesn’t have the size to be a true running back or the separation ability to be a consistent receiver, his open field running ability is fun to watch and he could have great value as a kick returner.

10. Marquise Goodwin, WR, Texas
Speed, speed, speed. Goodwin can’t offer much to NFL teams in terms of routes, separation, consistency, or the nuances of the position. But Goodwin has elite speed, and that’ll likely show up this week. If he can get reps and impress as a returner along with flashing the ability to get behind defensive backs as a receiver, their may be a 7^th round pick waiting for him.


Others I’m Excited to Hear About
Jeff Tuel, QB, Washington State
Taimi Tutogi, FB,Arizona
Mike James, RB, Miami (FL)
Chris Slaughter, WR, Fort Valley
Luke Wilson, TE, Rice
Caylin Hauptmann, OT, Florida International
Mario Benavides, OC, Louisville

Deon Goggins, DE, Syracuse
Herman Lathers, LB, Tennessee
Jordan Campbell, LB, New Mexico Highlands
Jake Johnson, LB, South Alabama
Uona Kaveinga, LB, BYU
Andre Kates, CB/S, Virginia Unio
Vaughn Telemaque, S, Miami (FL)
Kemal Ishmael, S, Central Florida
Drew Frey, S, Cincinnati

---

If I'm correct we need to seriously take a strong look at this Goodwin WR from Texas as a replacement for Wallace and hopefully he doesn't have an ego like Wallace, Take a look at their bowl game footage this year........ OMG!! you can't teach speed.

Here's a little write up on the practices for the NFLPA collegiate game:

CARSON, Calif. -- It was the first day of practice for the NFLPA Collegiate Bowl, and I have to say the facilities at the Home Depot Center, home to the L.A. Galaxy of the MSL, are phenomenal. It's as good a situation as you can get. The Senior Bowl in Mobile, Ala., has a perfect setup. The East/West Shrine Game suffers a little from not having a permanent home.

The talent here isn't as strong as the Senior Bowl's yet, but with this stadium and this venue it could get there. And it's well run.

On this first day, both coaching staffs were excellent. The Nationals, coached by Dick Vermeil, practiced first. The American, coached by ESPN's Herm Edwards, had the afternoon session. I've been to hundreds of these practices and sometimes you have players with different unis and equipment that doesn't fit and all sorts of issues. But this was as smoothly run as I've seen. The NFLPA worked closely with NFL scouts, who know what they're looking for and what's best for the players to showcase their skills.

It's only their second year, but they do an incredible job running it.

Crist Looks the Part

As for the players, let's start with the Nationals first, and let's start with the quarterbacks.

Of the three QBs, [Dayne Crist] (6-4, 239) had the best day. He was formerly of Notre Dame, and he went to the Jayhawks when he followed Charlie Weis. He has average to above-average arm strength and he looks the part physically: He's a big, strong QB. He shows flashes at times -- both in person and on tape -- in which he makes some great throws ... and he keeps you coming back and hoping for more.

But he needs to develop his ability to anticipate throws and become more consistent with his accuracy. He's also had durability issues in his career. But he looks the part. [Jeff Tuel] of Washington State and Fordham's Ryan Higgins also participated.

Moving to the defensive backs, one who stood out was Rutgers' [Duron Harmon]. He has quick feet and showed that in the drills. He also showed much quicker feet than the other safeties. He was also better at diagnosing things earlier than others and was aggressive. He came up and stuck a guy.

Of all the wide receivers, no one in the group really stood out. The one who had the best day from Trey Hiller from Sam Houston State. A couple of times, the ball got into his body and I thought he was a body catcher, but over the rest of practice, Hiller made several catches away from his frame. He also had the best catch of any wide receiver in the two practices when he had to extend to get the ball on a corner route. He doesn't have great speed, but that was the best catch of the day.

Little Brother Plays Well

As for the American team, in the 48 hours leading up to the first practice, we studied all six quarterbacks, and of the six, the one who stood out for me was Vanderbilt's [Jordan Rodgers], brother of [Green Bay Packers] QB Aaron Rodgers. Jordan is only 6-foot-1 and he doesn't have great arm strength, but he has smooth, quick release and a nice throwing motion. He might be slightly quicker and more athletic than his brother. And he has the maneuverability.

What we saw today was that he can make accurate throws when the pocket is clean, but what impressed me was his ability to make a throw with someone in his face. Everything was coming easier to him. He wasn't panicked or worried. It was the first day, and he wasn't perfect, but what we saw today in practice was that there was a confidence about him. The more I study him, the more I like him.

The one other player who jumped out today was [Jakar Hamilton] from South Carolina. Originally, he was at Georgia and pushed for a starting job against [Bacarri Rambo] and [Shawn Williams], both of whom will wind up being drafted in the first four rounds.

Hamilton had some character baggage, and we'll see how big of detractor that is. But from a skills standpoint, he stacks up against the guys you'd see at the Senior Bowl. He's quick for a safety, with great natural instincts. He knows the depths of his drops and how far he could push it. He did well reading the quarterback's eyes. From the individual drills, it appears he has very good ball skill, has good hands and was plucking the ball out of the air. Scouts will need to find out more about his character, but he'd make an intriguing Day 3 prospect.
-- Todd McShay

In the Trenches

A couple of players in the Nationals team group stood out among the offensive lineman. Washington offensive guard Drew Schafer. He's got a good frame, bends well at the knees and has a flexible lower body and is an above-average athlete. He did a good job all day, like when he pulled, he located the target, adjusted on the move and went hard to the second level. He also did well in the one-on-ones. He had good balance; he has some issues with his lateral movement, but he caught himself and recovered.

From the American team, [Ryan Seymour] of Vanderbilt stood out. He was a late addition to this game and he piqued my interest with his second effort on the field today. He's got that aggressive, mean streak that good offensive linemen have. I didn't know much about him, but the effort he gave in practice was impressive. It's a little thing, but he was the first at every drill. He'd be the first offensive lineman jogging down the field. He played both right and left tackle at the practice, and while he's not an exceptional athlete, he's adequate enough. He's got good feet and pop in the upper body. He did well in the one-on-one in which he got down and sank the anchor to protect the outside edge.

He's a late-round prospect or could be a high-priority free agent.

Defensive Standouts

For the National team, there were two defensive linemen who stood out. One was Kenchelle Harris of Virginia Union. He's raw, but he has some tools to work with -- especially his measurables. He plays with leverage and he consistently set the edge in the run game and used his hands well to disengage. He needs to polish his technique to keep offensive lineman from getting into his frame. He flashed some ability to switch from speed to power, but he needs to improve using his hands. It'll be interesting to see how he develops over the week.

From the American team, two linebackers stood out [Herman Lathers] from Tennessee, who I saw play four times in person this year. He diagnoses the ball well. I like the way he goes downhill with good aggression. He's not the greatest athlete, but he's good enough in space.

Then there's Jordan Campbell, who transferred from USC to New Mexico Highlands, who had the most energy of any defensive player on the field. He was real enthusiastic. He had a good closing burst and good punch at the point of attack. You could tell the talent was there.
-- Kevin Weidl

One Final Thought

[Marquise Goodwin], a wide receiver from Texas, was the best athlete here and it was obvious he played at a different speed than everyone else. After all, he did make the U.S. Olympic track and field team in the long jump. But like most track guys, he's tightly wound and that's a concern. He had to get stretched out twice because of cramps.
-- McShay

A guy to look at Free Safety Rontez Miles - two time player of the year in the PSAC for Cal PA. He's a local kid who Wexell says the Steelers have had their eye on for several years. The story is he had offers from a few SEC teams but chose Kent State to play with his brother. When his brother got kicked off the team he transferred to Cal PA. Wasn't there an OG Burgh liked from Cal PA last year?

Breed,

No deliberate omissions on my part just yet so I'll add Jamie Collins as well.  The list up above is just a rough draft (no pun intended) as I haven't even been to NFLDraftScout.com yet, looked at tweeners, etc.  I'll probably beef it up to around 35-40 total OLBs then start the scouting report on each, shuffling the order and/or striking names from the list.  Hopefully there will be enough film available on some of these guys as the eyeball test is what I need the most when evaluating a player.

I was one of the few (if no the only) Steelers fans to continue tooting Vontaze Burfict's horn despite the character issues and horrific combine results.  That was based entirely on what I saw on film and we all saw how Burfict turned out.

SK, what do you think about Dion Jordan? From just what I saw on the 2 films that are posted on the Steelersdepot site, I didn't like what I saw, I think he plays too upright and also I think he takes himself out of a lot of plays, gives up ground to get off of would be blockers.

SK, what do you think about Dion Jordan? From just what I saw on the 2 films that are posted on the Steelersdepot site, I didn't like what I saw, I think he plays too upright and also I think he takes himself out of a lot of plays, gives up ground to get off of would be blockers.--steelroc

That's pretty accurate from what I saw from the kid as well.  I took a look at some of the available footage and here are my notes:

Strengths: 
Long arms and large, lanky frame with room to fill out*
Fluid with great natural athleticism
Excellent speed, quickness, agility with a good burst
Solid range and good in pursuit
Reliable tackler capable of delivering a wollop 
Good hand techniques, rush moves, counters
Versatile, good motor

Weaknesses:
Lacks power and will have to get stronger*
Thin lower body - has to add bulk
Tendency to get tall, leading to leverage issues
Struggles to anchor and not real stout against the run
Inconsistent in coverage
A little slow with instincts and awareness

He'd be a bit of a project player like Timmons was and in similar ways. If he can get bigger and stronger while working on his leverage and overall technique, he could be a solid pick up in the right system that will help him develop.   

I was one of the few (if no the only) Steelers fans to continue tooting Vontaze Burfict's horn despite the character issues and horrific combine results.  That was based entirely on what I saw on film and we all saw how Burfict turned out.

He's still only a two-down linebacker with limited range. Great at filling the hole and certainly worthy of a late round pick but this story isn't over yet. I'll be surprised if we get through an entire offseason and his name doesn't appear on a police blotter somewhere.

I'm looking forward to your evaluations and trust your eye. I have ILBs so there will probably be some overlap we'll have to work out. I have my list pretty much together but just started watching whatever tape I can find. Looking forward to the Senior Bowl practices now that my cable company finally has NFL network.

Trevardo Willilams is very quick, has that twitch.  Even at 230 lbs. has the ability and speed to shed blocks. Can he hold the edge, or cover in space as an OLB, will find that out in the drills. He lined up at RDE at UConn.

Vontaize Burfict, got to see him play first hand at Heinz with bb, glad Colbert passed. He has a bad play then all of a sudden starts limping, like that kid that is afreid to admit he lost or got his a.ss kicked.  On passing downs, he's a liablity. LIke Beach said, wait for the off-season he will either do or say something so dumb or detrimental to the Bengals, he will be in hot water.

I also cannot wait to see the OLB's in the Shrine Game, hoping Sio Moore plays well, he's just very instinctive and very fast.  The PSU kid sounds like a good mid-round pickup.  One we missed on a few drafts ago, Frank Zombo, played DE at Central Michigan.  He sacked Ben in Superbowl XLV.

NYB, where's Zombo now? I don't think he's even starting for them.

I'm interested in the Stansly Mapongo kid from TCU, 6-2 265 there's a good article on him under his announcement to declare for the draft. Isn't Harrison and Woodley about the same height and weight? I also believe TCU plays the 3-4.

Beach and Bites,

I think you're being a bit too hard on Burfict.  Keep in mind that he was shifted to the outside away from his more natural position so while he may have some liability issues in coverage, name one other undrafted rookie OLB who doesn't.  He's controlled his emotions on the field, has matured a lot, and still does all of the things that I saw in him well.  It's very rare for a rookie to lead the team in tackles but Burfict can add that to his resume.  Regardless of all else, I think we can acknowledge that he was a steal and far exceeded most expectations.  I'll be interested in watching him continue to develop.

RE: Trevardo Williams

Thanks for that.  I haven't gone to the tale of the tape yet but those are good attributes that I'll be anxious to take a look at and maybe answer some of the question marks you presented about him.

RE: Sio Moore is a guy I've added to my list now that I've taken the chance to look at NFLDraftScout.com.  They gave the kid a great write up so I'd like to see him in action.  

I'll post an updated list sometime in the relatively near future after I've done some more research etc.

Keep in mind that he was shifted to the outside away from his more natural position so while he may have some liability issues in coverage, name one other undrafted rookie OLB who doesn't.

I don't see what his physical abilities have to do with his age or draft status. It's his range and change of direction ability that I think will limit him as a pro. Exceeded most expectations? I guess he did it quicker than what I thought but you also have to consider the state of the Bengals LB corp. It's pretty sad and it gets even sadder when they let Maualuga walk. For all the love the Bengals FO has gotten lately (which is completely overblown) had they put even an average LB corp on the field they'd probably would have been the best defense in football.

I don't see what his physical abilities have to do with his age or draft status. 

Just pointing out the obvious that not all rookies have developed to their full potential and that he performed far better than what caused his draft stock to plummet from a first round prospect to an FA.  He has all the physical abilities to be a very good to borderline great LB.  Don't let the atrocious combine numbers throw you off.  He was overweight, out of shape, undisciplined, and unprepared.  

It's his range and change of direction ability that I think will limit him as a pro.

I disagree.  He has good sideline to sideline speed, gets good depth in his zone drops with great closing speed, quickness, good instincts, and is a lot better against the pass then I think you're giving him credit for.  I could see an argument for him not having the greatest change of direction speed but, for me, I'd attribute that more to his violent playing style and a lack of discipline on some plays.  Those things will continue to improve as he matures and develops because the raw physical talent is there.  He didn't lead the Bengals in tackles because of poor range and change of direction ability.  That's a non-sequitur.

The list of 3-4 teams are dwindling: this list was from last year

• Pittsburgh Steelers
• Baltimore Ravens
• San Diego Chargers
• Dallas Cowboys
• Green Bay Packers
• Washington Redskins
• Arizona Cardinals
• San Francisco 49ers
• Indianapolis Colts
• Kansas City Chiefs
• Houston Texans

You can most likely scratch Dallas and Arizona off this list with their recent hirings, and if you look at this list the Chiefs and Chargers are the only teams picking ahead of us in the draft, so we should have pretty much the pick of the litter, Hopefully our scouts are really doing their homework this year.

Hey fellas, I'll be stopping in from time to time to chat some draft if you don't mind a dirty Eagles fan chatting, haha.

In regards to the last post, you can ADD the Eagles to list of 3-4 teams. It looks like they will be bringing in Todd Grantham from UGA and will be implementing his 3-4 defense.

Seahawks play some 3-4 and Browns could be returning to the 3-4 as well.

Seahawks play some 3-4 and Browns could be returning to the 3-4 as well.

I Wonder if Clevleland would not target Star Loutleilei, they already have Phil Taylor and Ahyba Rubin. Sheard would be an OLB, they could move Rucker as the 5, and Kitchen is another possible NT. Kitchen is a guy I liked coming out of Kent State as an undrafted diamond in the rough. In summary, they have enough NT talent, and not much DE talent for the 3-4. But they again Phil Taylor can play any postion on the field, and he once saved 3 nuns from a Rectory fire.

On the Seahawks, throw out conventional wisdom and rankings, Pete Carrol will take the player who he likes, example Bruce Irvin. Round two he got one heckuva ballplayer in Bobby Wagner. He has one of the best and biggest secondaries in the NFL. I like how he gave the job to Russell Wilson, he let the QB's compete in camp and did not care about veteran status. I think Tomlin needs to at least consider putting the best 22 on the field in 2013, even though I think veterans have the job  until they lose it. How many of us wanted Steve McClendon starting and think Cameon Heyward needs more playing time?  I would never question Dick LeBeau or John Mitchell, but as a fan I get frustrated seeing talented players sit over aging veterans who seem to be a step slower evey year, which leads to:

What free agent vets are coming back? Where is Colbert cutting the cap, are Diesel and Snack history? How hard are they going to work to keep Keenan Lewis, who I think is going to hurt the team the most if they lose him in FA, just an opinion. And if they do go Youth on the DL, look for another midround pick to add depth.  I took DL for the war board, I am telling you guys Quenton Dial and Spencer Nealy are perfect 5 techniques late in the draft to develop for the Steelers.

Hey fellas, I'll be stopping in from time to time to chat some draft if you don't mind a dirty Eagles fan chatting, haha.

Scuba,

A little history here. This thread was started 4 years ago, and is one of the largest on CBS, over 10,000 posts were removed because their servers are too small and the clueless admins deemed them outdated. We welcome in all fans of the draft, true NFL fans interested in their team improving by taking players who fit thier system and could help their team. To be a succesfful 3-4, it starts with the NT, and you have to have 4 very solid LB's, and two unselfish DE's that are not worrying about sacks.

I have a few rules on here, unwritten and not enforced, but you will get better and more positive results if you follow them.

1. ESPN sucks. Overall, the best draft information is nfldraftscout, a knockoff version here on cbs sports.
2. The best talent evaluation at the combine is done by NFL network, specifically Mike Mayock.
3. Talk about the Steelers in a positive light, for retooling, rebuilding, or in general.
4. Discussions pro and con are welcomed, infighting is not positive.

I welcome you to the discussion, tell us who you think the Eagles will target and why? Me personally I think Chip Kelly will bring in speed, speed, and more speed. Watch the combine, he wants players that fly around the field.

nybites (not just the Yankees who bite, but the Jets as well)

scuba,

welcome!   Much like the Steelers - the Eagles O-line was devastated by injury... but Watkins (whom I liked when drafted) hasn't panned out... will be interesting watching the Eagles in the draft...  young team...

enjoy,

bb