HOF Voting is a Joke!

The fact you think an 11x Pro Bowl, 7x All Pro guard named to two NFL All-Decades teams (1990s and 2000s) is "borderline" says enough.

^^^^^ This.

Hell, Larry Allen almost single-handedly made people think that Emmit Smith is a top ten RB.  

Can't say it enough Reed changed the game forever Carter did not! Reed was a key part of one of the most prolific offenses in history that went to four straight bowls, Carter wasn't ever really a key in all honesty. Carter also was very good in big games Reed was. In my opinion both Carter and Sapp leap frogged some players because of their self promotion more than their contribution. If a player changes the way a position is played that's a hall of fame player!

^^^^^should say wasn't very good in big games^^^^^^^^^^^

 In my opinion both Carter and Sapp leap frogged some players

Carter waited 6 years when he should have been a first timer. Reed will get there, but he is not the WR that Carter was. Not only does he not have the numbers, but if you watched them both play, the eye test is won by the guy with the best hands ever. 

"Carter waited 6 years when he should have been a first timer. Reed will get there, but he is not the WR that Carter was. Not only does he not have the numbers, but if you watched them both play, the eye test is won by the guy with the best hands ever.".....................Complete ignorance! I thinks it's you who didn't watch. Their number are very close and Reed never benefitted from a Moss opposite him! Again Reed changed the game and basically created a position in doing so! Something you actually tried to knock him for! Was Carter better at self promotion? YES! But he wasn't better than Reed. Just like Sapp wasn't better than Randall, or Sanders better than Woodson! Have to look past the self promotion at times and like you said the eye test really says Reed!

Complete ignorance! I thinks it's you who didn't watch

No he was right it is you that didn't. Reed didn't change chit, he played on a great team and still managed only four 1,000 yard seasons and 1 season of 10 td's or more. Carter had eight seasons in a row in which he went over 1,000 yards and 5 years in a row of more than 10 td's. Oh and Cris Carter had the best hands of any receiver i've ever seen play. I like Reed but he's not in the conversation of greatest receivers of all time, Carter is. Honestly if you think Reed wins the eye tests you didn't watch CC play.

However I do agree John Randle was better than Sapp and Rod Woodson was better than Sanders.



Peace...

"Reed didn't change chit".............I'm listening name me another WR who lined up in the slot before Reed and made it a true weapon? I'll wait. And this best hands crap ever is kind of a joke, it's subjective. Guys like Monk, Sterling, Largent, A.Carter, Joyner, Swann, Fitz, etc, could go on and on here. Sounds to me like some folks take BSPN to heart and don't really know for themselves up from down when it comes to football.

And this best hands crap ever is kind of a joke, it's subjective.

It's all subjective man.  Most people all agree that Cris Carter had hands like no other.  I like Andre Reed but I really doubt he gets in because I just never felt like the dude dominated.  If i'm going by the stats then Carter blows him out of the water.  If we're going by the eye test again Carter blows him out of the water.  I just think Carter has the better resume and evidently the professionals agree.

  As for Bettis i'm just not sold on him getting in.  He's got 13,000 yards and that great, but much like Reed, I never saw him as a dominant player.  He's got a ring but he wasn't even the main running back that year for the Steelers.  He averaged 7 touchdowns per season throughout his career which is pretty meh and wasn't a good receiving rb (3 receiving tds in 13 years and only 200 total receiptions).  I feel like you could lump him in with Fred Taylor/Edgerrin James/Eddie George.  I just don't think he fits in with Barry/Emmitt/Martin/Faulk/LT/Peters
on.

" Most people all agree that Cris Carter had hands like no other.  I like Andre Reed but I really doubt he gets in because I just never felt like the dude dominated.  If i'm going by the stats then Carter blows him out of the water.  If we're going by the eye test again Carter blows him out of the water.  I just think Carter has the better resume and evidently the professionals agree."....................First off Carter and Reeds stats are almost identical except rec./TD. So no Carter doesn't blow Reed away. And when you consider those Bills teams were killing teams they weren't passing late in games so he was really compiling garbage time stats. Carter has a better resume? Interesting take. Because reality is Reeds contribution changed the game more than Carter's. Reeds contribution actually help Carter achieve some of the stats he compiled. Again Reed is the guy that made lining up in the slot a cable weapon. He had the skill set to line up inside and change coverage for the guys outside. Oh and as for your comment about "the professionals" you mean media? Then yes they agree for what that's worth.

First off Carter and Reeds stats are almost identical except rec./TD. So no Carter doesn't blow Reed away.

Carter has 150 more catches and almost 50 more TDs than Reed....Carter clearly has the numbers edge, not to mention the fact that Carter was just flat out better than Reed.


Again Reed is the guy that made lining up in the slot a cable weapon.


Who cares where he lined up?  Carter was better, period.


Reeds contribution actually help Carter achieve some of the stats he compiled.


Last time I checked Reed never played for the Vikings.

First off Carter and Reeds stats are almost identical except rec./TD. So no Carter doesn't blow Reed away.

Carter and Reed both played 16 seasons, same exact number of games (234) and Carter has 150 more receptions and 43 more touchdwons.  When you look at a receivers resume you look at receptions, yards, and tds, and Carter blows Reed out of the water in two of the three main stats. 

As for your point about Cris Carter getting "garbage time stats", on what are you basing this on?  Is it because he played on garbage teams?  He played for the Vikings for 12 seasons.  1990 and 2001 (his first and last seasons) were the only years the Vikings had a losing record, so I'm just not buying into the idea that most of the games he played in were decided by halftime and teams were just letting him catch the ball.  Until you come up with hard evidence to support what you are saying, your "garbage time stats" hypothesis is nothing more than a guess in the dark.

Because reality is Reeds contribution changed the game more than Carter's.

To each his own, but just because a guy is the first to do something doesn't necessarily make him a HOFer.  You could make a case that Randal Cunningham changed the game with his dual threat capability but that doesn't necessarily get him enshrined into Pro Football's HOF.

Oh and as for your comment about "the professionals" you mean media?

Guys that get paid a ton of money to give their expert opinions on football/ex football players, etc.

Guys that get paid a ton of money to give their expert opinions on football/ex football players, etc.

I don't get paid to give my opinion, but I can assure you that my opinions are expert quality opinions :)

@kylew - Ok so Carter had 150 more receptions both played 16 years that about 9 more receptions per year right? How many more reception do you think Carter was able to grab just by playing indoors all winter as opposed to outdoors? You guys aren't even considering that. Or how a team will run the ball more when the weather turns which last I checked doesn't happen indoors does it? No. As for those experts that are paid a ton of money? Wrong there is one rep from every teams local media I doubt they even bring down 6 figures to be honest. Again a few years back Carter wasn't even a finalist Reed has been for years. What all of a sudden changed that Carter leap frogs him? Again is it his position in the media? His endless self promotion to get in? What?

how much better would Carter's stats be if he never played alongside Jake Reed and Moss? It's not close between CC and Reed. Carter made the sideline catch better than anyone and played on some of thr most dominant offrnses of the generation. I say this as a Packer fan/ viking hater who always despised Carter 

@slickrick - Playing along side those guys aided him not hurt him.

here is what i dont get, i understand leaving the first ballot for true ledgends of the game ( montana, barry sanders..etc) but what i dont get is the voting after that! if they are a hall of famer then vote them in, i dont get why people get in on the 5th or 6th vote! what have they changed or done since vote #2 and #6? nothing, there playing days are done and over with, its the same body of work to look at! i just dont get that! like some guy got in from the 60's, how many times did they vote on him?

Denny, only 3 players are allowed to be voted in per season. The low number inetivatably leaves players out in the cold. While the rule perhaps too stringent, it's purpose is to ensure that only the legends get in. It's a numbers game and a lot of times, guys have to wait. It's very difficult to get voted in on the 1st ballot, or even 2nd ballot.

And by the way, saying Reed was a better player than Carter is a joke. The one guy's argument seems to be primarily based on the fact that Reed "changed the game" by being a slot receiver... well, Kyle successfully nixed that by mentioning Randall Cunningham as changing the way the game was played at QB and I don't think anyone considers him HOF material.

scuba, thanks for the info, thats a pretty dumb rule, but thanks again

I know they basically don't consider kickers actual football players but I have to say Ray Guy changed games with his punting ability. IMO he should be in but he wasn't and wont ever be even on the ballot. Punters and kickers are probably as responsible for wins and loses as anyone in close games.

Carter > Reed   simple really ......we dont want the  REALLY REALLY Good players we want the BEST !

@kylew - Ok so Carter had 150 more receptions both played 16 years that about 9 more receptions per year right? How many more reception do you think Carter was able to grab just by playing indoors all winter as opposed to outdoors? You guys aren't even considering that. Or how a team will run the ball more when the weather turns which last I checked doesn't happen indoors does it? No. As for those experts that are paid a ton of money? Wrong there is one rep from every teams local media I doubt they even bring down 6 figures to be honest. Again a few years back Carter wasn't even a finalist Reed has been for years. What all of a sudden changed that Carter leap frogs him? Again is it his position in the media? His endless self promotion to get in? What?

from '93-'02 he had 492 receptions at home vs 408 on the road.  Not too much of a difference there, only 84 catches over 10 years which means he averaged one more catch per game at home than away during that time, which I can chalk that up to the fact that most everybody plays better in their home stadium and I did a quick count of tds in my head and he had 40 something tds away and 50 something at home.  Again not that drastic of a jump, as everybody plays better at home.

so i guess by this guys logic no one that plays in sd or miami or any good weather climate should get into the hall of fame either, cuz they didnt play outside when the weather was bad? you cant hold a player hostage by who drafts them or what team trades for them! carter belongs in the hall of fame and he is now in so i dont think he job in the media had anything to do with it!

@kylew/Denny - First off not saying players should be excluded because they played indoors at all. But when looking at numbers all things must be considered. And anybody who thinks playing indoors is the same as playing outdoors in Buffalo no less is stupid. Especially when talking WR,QB,K.........As for the Randall Cunningham changing the game argument? It's pretty hollow since teams aren't out looking actively for the next great mobile QB, they werent even doing that after Vick hit the league! So to imply he changed the game is a stretch at best anymore than saying Fran Tarkington made it so every team needs a mobile QB. Since Reed the slot position has become not only more prominent but probably the most productive position as far as WRs go. And again I'm not saying Carter wasn't deserving I just don't think he was so much better than Reed he leap frogs him to get in.

hitsquad, i agree with reed getting into the hall of fame!

@Kylew - As for my statement about Reed being a finalist longer than Carter he was. Two years age 2011 Carter wasn't even a top 10 finalist Reed was. So both are retired what changed? How does he all of a sudden leap frog Reed? Could it be his own position in the media influenced the media who votes? Could it be his complaining about the process and lobbying to get in that pushed him over Reed all of a sudden? I don't know, what I do know is Reed deserved to go in first period.

CARTER shulda been First Ballot....Reed Basically had a TWO YEAR WINDOW....once SURE-HANDs CARTER joined the class He was always gonna get in B4 REED

I don't believe Art Modell should ever get in. Yes, I know all about the history of the NFL and what he did with regard to TV contracts and whatnot. Still, what he did to Cleveland was downright dirty and since the HoF is in Ohio, it would be an insult to have him in it.

I don't believe Art Modell should ever get in. Yes, I know all about the history of the NFL and what he did with regard to TV contracts and whatnot. Still, what he did to Cleveland was downright dirty and since the HoF is in Ohio, it would be an insult to have him in it.

Owners and coaches should not have to compete with players. They should just get one in every year as long as there is someone deserving. If not, then wait until there is. 

I don't believe Art Modell should ever get in. Yes, I know all about the history of the NFL and what he did with regard to TV contracts and whatnot. Still, what he did to Cleveland was downright dirty and since the HoF is in Ohio, it would be an insult to have him in it.

It wasnt dirty you idiot. He was bleeding money due to the crap fan base and pleaded with cleaveland. He told them exactly what he needed and exactly what he would be forced to do if things didnt change.