President Drone, war criminal

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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 9:20 am
which, otherwise, disagree with one another, as sourcing for his point that said usage is murder... My point, which was likely quite obvious, is that the author of this article specifically chose to include civilian death rates from the study that placed the highest percentage on said deaths, while failing to mention the death rates from the other studies, for the purpose of making his point that the use of drones equates to "murder." [This quote of yours is actually taken from two different posts, but I don't think posting them together here distorts your meaning]

By "sourcing for his point" I take it you mean something like this:

substantiating the ethic that "drone use = murder" by grounding it in evidence taken from the three sources. 

First off, I don't think McNamara intended that these sources provide the substantiation for his ethic that drone usage equates with murder. I think he established that ethic [to his satisfaction at least] via the Orwell essay coupled with his recounting of the death of the American teenager via drone attack in Yemen. The main thing he intended with the three sources was to establish that murder by drone is, in fact, going on, not that it is murder. And, as long as we are guessing as to why he quoted only the highest death ratio of the Brookings op-ed [and please note that I have agreed he should not have used the quote in the way that he did], my guess would be that a) he was trying to get the attention of an American readership numb to the death of a single Pakistani, but a readership that might perhaps pay attention to larger body counts, and b) he wanted to cite an authoritative American source that not only gave a high body count but also argued that a high body count is acceptable. I would guess that McNamara did so to highlight the barbarity of a mind that would accept a 10/1 ratio. In fact, whether or not the 10/1 ratio is actually the correct ratio is irrelevant in this context: it is the acceptance of it that is barbaric. Anyway, that's my guess (Remember for McNamara the taking of even a single life is unacceptable.) [By the way, in 2009, just prior to the publishing of the Brooking's op-ed, there was at least one well-documented report which presented much higher ratios] and,

The point is that all three sources--in different ways--document what matters to McNamara: murder is happening. So I don't have a problem with his sources not being in absolute agreement with each other as to the total numbers of civilian deaths, or for that matter that one study says that the civilian/insurgent kill ratio is improving [though McNamara should have mentioned it], while the other study does not. 

In other words, from McNamara's point of view, similar to those who oppose capital punishment, even if drones killed only one person over the course of a year or more it would still be murder.
HermanNeutic
SinceAug 28, 2011
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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 9:28 am
going so far as to use sources that directly contradict points pulled from other sources, while failing to mention any reasonable counterargument.

If I'm correct as to the reason that McNamara used the sources that he did, namely, to establish that civilians were being killed, then the counterargument to McNamara's argument would be that no civilians have ever been killed, that civilians are not currently being killed, and that civilians will not be killed in the future. And I don't think anyone would seriously offer this argument, so how can McNamara be cited for failing to mention it? 
HermanNeutic
SinceAug 28, 2011
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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 9:38 am
that is pretty much exactly the type of thing I consider a "hyper-biased hack-job."

In journalism, the term hack is used to describe a writer who is deemed to operate as a "mercenary" or "pen for hire," expressing their client's political opinions in pamphlets or newspaper articles.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_w
rite]r
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This is the definition of "hack" that I've been going by. Whatever shortcomings McNamara's article may or may not have, he seems to be sincere if not passionate, and to be expressing beliefs that are his own.
HermanNeutic
SinceAug 28, 2011
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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 9:58 am
Furthermore, a "bang up, thorough research job" was hardly required to prove the CounterPunch article to be chock-full of inconsistencies, half-truths, and outright contradictions. 

I think we've been discussing five sentences, which I agree were misleading (half-truths? by your account): he referred to an op-ed piece as a study and failed to mention it was from 2009 (although this info did appear in the footnotes and link); and he also failed to point out that one source stated the civilian to combatant ratio was declining. But I don't think these five sentence, less than 10% of the article, warrant the description "chock-full of"

I did not mock the OP-Ed piece, I mocked the CounterPunch author's use of said piece. That is far from being the same thing, I cannot help but wonder what would lead you to make such a statement.

This did

             So now that we've deemed this "1 insurgent for every 10 civilians" figure to be entirely unbased, and dreamed up

and this:

the Brookings "study"/Op-Ed cited no source for the figure it seemingly pulled out of thin air - immediately prior to admitting that it was nearly impossible to get an accurate figure.


 
HermanNeutic
SinceAug 28, 2011
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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 12:56 pm
I did not mock the OP-Ed piece, I mocked the CounterPunch author's use of said piece. That is far from being the same thing, I cannot help but wonder what would lead you to make such a statement.

This did

             So now that we've deemed this "1 insurgent for every 10 civilians" figure to be entirely unbased, and dreamed up

and this:

the Brookings "study"/Op-Ed cited no source for the figure it seemingly pulled out of thin air - immediately prior to admitting that it was nearly impossible to get an accurate figure.




How is pointing out that the stat provided has no basis in anything that can be substantiated - which is a point you are not refuting - considered to be "mocking?"

The figure was seemingly pulled out of thin air, which is just another way of saying it is unsibstantiated.

Pointing out a failing is not tantamount to mocking, at least not where I come from.  Was it the use of "dreamed up" that bothered you?  I guess I have no idea if it was dreamed up, or how it was calculated - but that was the point behind my usage of the phrase.

Though if that counts as mocking, what does that say for the following comments, all made by you:

Furthermore, you have represented your incomplete, at best, "accomplishment" as if you have done some kind of bang up, thorough research job.

Nathan, I've always found you to be one of the most intelligent, reasonable, fair minded, and remarkably patient posters on these threads, that is up until now, of course. Maybe, I misread you in the past,  or maybe you've changed--I haven't read much that you have posted recently.

Maybe you don't read as widely and and critically as I thought.



I also notice you skipped over your previous reference to my posts as anything but a "bang up, thorough research job," and that I was considering my posts as such - as well as my response that nothing of the sort was needed.  Any particular reason for skipping over your - rather prickish I might add - comment?

You focus on the "chock-full of" comment, but that was not mentioned at all in your previous post denegrating my posts. 

This might be the most frustrating part of the conversation - you making comments, me replying, and you completely changing the subject.
nathan2940
SinceJul 31, 2009
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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 12:43 pm
In journalism, the term hack is used to describe a writer who is deemed to operate as a "mercenary" or "pen for hire," expressing their client's political opinions in pamphlets or newspaper articles.

I would like to point out that I did not refer to the author as a hack, rather I referred to his piece as a "hack job," which has more than just a subtle difference in the common vernacular.

A "hack job" usually just means something done shoddily, perhaps something done as quickly as possible to get the job done, a crude representation of the job that should/could have been done, etc.

I cannot find a particularly respectable source that defines this phrase, thoug Urban Dictionary says:

1. A procedure or operation performed by someone with inadequate skill or knowlege of the subject.

2. Something done shoddily or ineptly.

3. A crude and improvised or temporary solution to a problem, designed to be more functional and timely than precise, durable or of good quality.

4. Something done with little forethought, organization, planning or precision.

5. A useless, inept or sloppy person.
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/defi
ne.php?term=hack%20job]

Which may have been a bit harsh, especially the last oen (which was, as stated, not what I intended, as I my comment was in regards to the article).

The 2nd and 3rd definitions are more what I intended.
nathan2940
SinceJul 31, 2009
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President Drone, war criminal

February 4, 2013 12:37 pm
The point is that all three sources--in different ways--document what matters to McNamara: murder is happening.

I guess that depends on ones preferred definition of "murder," which is an argument I'd certainly like to avoid.  Been down that road far too many times with other posters, lol.  (Note that this "lol" is for the purposes of showing humor, not sarcasm or anything of the sort).

In other words, from McNamara's point of view, similar to those who oppose capital punishment, even if drones killed only one person over the course of a year or more it would still be murder.

Dammit, I'm about to get into exactly what I said I wanted to avoid...  Though I do appreciate moving on from the article specifics to a more general argument.

For me, the term "murder" is too targeted for an accidental killing.  Manslaughter would be the more appropriate legal term (though if we got into legal terms, "felony murder" would throw an odd wrench in that argument - though frankly, I oppose such laws for that very reason).

I do oppose capital punishment, btw, though I don't see that as the contradiction McNamara apparently would.  My opposition is more based on its utter and abject failures as a policy.
nathan2940
SinceJul 31, 2009