Browns should try to land D Revis

Regardless of where you fall in the Weeden debate this is a pretty powerful paragraph ...

He spent better than 80% in shotgun in college, the NFL spent on average 66% in shotgun and both Turner and Chud's offenses spent north of 75% in shotgun...yet Shurmur decided to put his rookie QB in shotgun 43% of the time, with little to no time to read a defense prior to snap...There is a distinct difference in what proves to be successful and what doesn't in a young QB...Shurmur did the opposite of that.

Really does have to make you wonder about Shurmur. Everyone on the planet appeared to know he was on the hot seat and instead of putting his QB in the best possible position to succeed (QB and team) he bucked the trend of the entire league.

Everyone on the planet appeared to know he was on the hot seat and instead of putting his QB in the best possible position to succeed (QB and team) he bucked the trend of the entire league. 

Less than 60 percent completion and QB rating of 79.1 when in shotgun.

That's what Weeden gave us in his "best situation".

Or, good for 17th (tied) in completion percentage and 24th in QB rating among all QBs in the NFL.  That's extrapolating (ignoring the law of diminishing returns) and suggesting Weeden throw it from the shotgun 100% of the time. 

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I don't shed a tear for losing Pat Shurmur.  I've stated before he had numerous short-comings... but it's not like Weeden was some world-beater in the shotgun and Pat just kept him out of it to spite Browns fans everywhere.

Weeden was still BELOW AVERAGE in his most natural situation.

Pat Shurmur played the hand he was dealt.

Or, good for 17th (tied) in completion percentage and 24th in QB rating among all QBs in the NFL.  That's extrapolating (ignoring the law of diminishing returns) and suggesting Weeden throw it from the shotgun 100% of the time.

Which are both up grades approximately 34% better in shotgun in completion percentage and 43% better in QB rating in shotgun...IMPROVEMENTS are what we are looking for, right?

If Weeden was 17th in the NFL in completion percentage as opposed to 27th, which has been one of your arguments...would you be trying so hard to replace him after only one season?

But more telling is this...

but it's not like Weeden was some world-beater in the shotgun and Pat just kept him out of it to spite Browns fans everywhere.

Weeden was still BELOW AVERAGE in his most natural situation.

Pat Shurmur played the hand he was dealt.

If anyone can find the stats SAS, it's you...show me the percentages of shotgun in obvious passing situations vs. obvious running situations...because at 43% shotgun overall, it begs to be an argument that the defense knows you are passing when in that formation...If you are in the formation 66%(league average) or 77%(Turner and Chud's average) then it is safe to say the defense may not be inclined to know exactly what you are going to do out of that particular formation...

So, "natural situation" as you call it is not so natural when you take the guess work out of the defense, especially when you routinely give the defense 30 seconds to switch out personnel between plays to combat those situations...

 

Pat Shurmur played the hand he was dealt.

Pat Shurmur played the hand he knew best, without adjusting for personnel, which is why he is no longer in Cleveland and everyone is scratching their heads to the hire by the Eagles/Kelly...He flies in the face of what Kelly has done in his college coaching career...

Shurmur will have to re-invent himself, otherwise he will be TOTALLY lost in what Kelly will want him to be doing...

Less than 60 percent completion and QB rating of 79.1 when in shotgun

So an improvement. That's good information. How many INTs?

So the Browns' new regime hasn't come out publically and endorsed Weeden as "their guy".  Big deal.  Maybe they are just lighting a fire under his ass.  Who cares if Jacksonville played their cards differently in regards to Gabbert.  What are they, the model franchise to pattern your team after?  

I like the fact that Weeden publically welcomed the challenge in Cleveland...He knows there is ALWAYS going to be somebody gunnin for his job.  It's the nature of the business.  Weeden knows, overall team dysfuntion or not, he didn't win enough games last year.  That's the bottom line.....For you "Weeden haters" to suggest that it's a done deal, and the team has already decided that they are moving in a different direction at QB, it's just pure speculation....Maybe you are right, all I'm sayin is, lets not act like it's a fact.  Nobody knows....My hunch is Weeds will definately be a part of the plan, and he will be the starting QB of the Cleveland Browns in 2013...I could be wrong too...Though I think we all know that's highly doubtfull.

 

So an improvement. That's good information. How many INTs?

Shotgun: 8 TDs, 7 INTs
Under Center: 6 TDs, 10 INTs 

Sam, you're funny.  I loved the phone comparison.  Classic SA.... Sorry if I put you in the shlepp category earlier.  I don't really think that, though I do think you should lighten up on our QB, and just realize he was in a horrible situation with a numbskull coach...That's why the stats are insignificant in BW's situation.  The Browns did nothing to help their rookie QB find his comfort zone.  See above posts by Irish and Beach....I really think that says it all.


 

Sorry if I put you in the shlepp category earlier

I still may be a schlepp.  That's yet to be determined.



though I do think you should lighten up on our QB

I want to.  I really do.  I bought everything the regime fed us.

But c'mon.  We had to sit here and watch three rookie QBs go to the playoffs.  We had to watch another rookie QB out-perform our boy on a team with much worse talent.   

I'm already preparing myself for him to start 2013 -- I just am not expecting great things. 

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If Weeden was 17th in the NFL in completion percentage as opposed to 27th, which has been one of your arguments...would you be trying so hard to replace him after only one season?

Of course not.  But he wasn't 17th.

Matt Stafford only completed 59.8% of his passes, but was 84.1% out of the shotgun.  You can't just say -- okay, put him in the shotgun all the time.

If anyone can find the stats SAS, it's you...show me the percentages of shotgun in obvious passing situations vs. obvious running situations...because at 43% shotgun overall, it begs to be an argument that the defense knows you are passing when in that formation

Alas, I cannot find that information.  At least... not easily. 

You're absolutely right, though.  I would guess he was put into shotgun more while we were behind, too.  

Of course, the cynic in me could add: "Yeah, but when *weren't* we behind?"

 

I still may be a schlepp.  That's yet to be determined.

Nah.  I think that's been pretty well established. 

Look, I am the first to say that Weeden has GOT TO make a huge leap in the decision making category for 2013...But I just do not find any other prospect, draft, free agency or trade, that would assure me that the replacement would be an improvement...short of Flacco, whom is not really an option, most likely even if he is non-exclusively tendered...

I might as well hope that the progress is made and he makes a marked improvement in 2013, because that is the most likely reality we are living in.

Look, I am the first to say that Weeden has GOT TO make a huge leap in the decision making category for 2013...But I just do not find any other prospect, draft, free agency or trade, that would assure me that the replacement would be an improvement...short of Flacco, whom is not really an option, most likely even if he is non-exclusively tendered...

I might as well hope that the progress is made and he makes a marked improvement in 2013, because that is the most likely reality we are living in.

Sad, but true, Irish. Guess they could kick the tires on Alex Smith, but even he is certainly no sure thing to be an improvement.  While my guess is he would be, I don't think he'd be the ideal franchise QB a team needs.

While my guess is he would be, I don't think he'd be the ideal franchise QB a team needs.

This is the part I don't understand...Why does anyone think he would be an improvement?

In his NFC Championship year in 2011 16 games started and finished, he only threw for 3,144 yards and 17 TDs to 3 INTs...In Harbaughs system that gave him the best year of his career...

Last year he was on pace to throw for 3,088 yards and 22 TDs against 9 INTs...

Weeds in his very first year in the NFL threw for 3,385 yards in 15 games, he threw for 14 TDs to 17 INTs...much better than Smith in his rookie campaign...Or ANY campaign until Harbaugh showed up his 6th year in the league.
Now take away his rookie mistakes and improve his TD to INT ratio like many 2nd year starters do and you at the very least have Alex Smith type stats...In his best year's as a pro, 7 years into his career.



I know everyone wants a miracle solution at QB, but short of the Ravens choking on a Flacco deal...It ain't gonna happen this offseason. Might as well get on the Weeden train and hope for the best like I am...

TD, do u watch or know football?  How many times did T-Rich run from the shotgun at Bama and in Clev?  Hes a downhill runner that doesnt make many people miss at or near the LOS.  U keep bringing up Lynch, but he plays w a QB that keeps defenses honest cause he can run a 4.55-4.6....will Weeden keep defenses honest?  The Browns didnt draft him w the intention of being a shotgun oriented team...they took him to line up in the I w a FB to BOB and run downhill.  Thats the style of Turner and thats what the offense will b predicated on throughout the yr.  Yes, he may run a shotgun draw once in awhile, but that will not b the focal point....if thats the case they should have just hired Kelly and u would have been happy.

This is the part I don't understand...Why does anyone think he would be an improvement?

Irish... great question.  Seriously.

You have to put yourself in one of two categories...

CAMP A:  The Browns are *very* close to a competitive, Playoff-caliber team.

CAMP B:  The Browns have extensive building to do before they're considered a competitive, Playoff-caliber team.

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For the record, I was in Camp A to begin 2012.  I had the Browns going 9-7. I still very deeply believe that if Colt McCoy had started every game, we'd have been around .500 with that squad.  I can point to three loses (Philadelphia, Baltimore, Buffalo) that are solely on the shoulders of Brandon Weeden (and nowhere can I point to a game that Weeden willed us to win).

So which camp are you in?  

Do you believe Cleveland is a playmaker (or two) away from competitive, Playoff football?  Or do they need to re-tool several aspects of their game and put playmakers in a number of positions?

An example I like to use is Cincinnati.  Their defense is definitely better than ours, but I cannot say definitively they have more "playmakers" on defense than we do.  On offense, the obvious answer is A.J. Green, but Andy Dalton -- in my mind -- is in the same boat as an Alex Smith.  At all the other spots, I think our roster is stronger.

You pursue Alex Smith if you think we're close to winning.  If you think we've still got two or three years of building (and by default, struggling and losing records), then you stick with "our" guy.

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You pursue Alex Smith if you think we're close to winning.  If you think we've still got two or three years of building (and by default, struggling and losing records), then you stick with our guy.

To piggy-back onto my argument with Weeden now...

If you think you're two or three years away from competitive football, why stick with a 30-year old QB who performed pretty atrociously and who's only solid attribute is a strong arm?  The NFL is moving towards a mobile QB realm.  That doesn't mean they need to blaze a 4.32 straight-line like Robert Griffin III... but even guys like Andrew Luck posted solid numbers in the 40 (4.67) and shuttle drills.

If you're dedicated to building around a guy and you in fact *aren't* close, then doesn't it make sense to pick a guy with more upside and an overall longer shelf-life?

(FULL DISCLOSURE: My marriage to a new guy this route was shattered when Aaron Murray decided to stay for his senior season.  I do not see a guy I like nearly as much.  However, we're now faced with the prospect of having to hold the #1 pick in the 2014 draft to secure his rights.  I don't like that alternative, either.) 

Well if u guys want Weeden in the shotgun 75-80% of the time....I hope T-Rich is on the trading block.  No reason at all to spend the #3 pick on a franchise RB if u want the QB in shotgun that much time.  End of discussion...u cant have ur cake and eat it 2.  IMO, Shurmur made the right decision when the front office made the pick of T-Rich to go more I formation 2 back.  

Well if u guys want Weeden in the shotgun 75-80% of the time....I hope T-Rich is on the trading block.  No reason at all to spend the #3 pick on a franchise RB if u want the QB in shotgun that much time.  End of discussion...u cant have ur cake and eat it 2.

Yeah Alfred Morris was practically invisible in the shotgun. Bejaurvis Green-Ellis never did anything out of the shotgun and Marshawn Lynch might as well retire.

Beat me to the punch beach...

The running game has changed just as much, if not more, than the passing game the past decade...Not the same QB under center formation, yet just as effective and just as much in need of a proficient RB.

Ya T-Rich is that kind of back...not.  BTW, u named 3 out of how many RBs.  They will not b a shotun type team w Weeden and T-Rich.....forget about it.

Oh and u mentioned 2 of the best running QBs in the NFL w that style that teams need to account for and BJE...he was solid lol

Just stop it stopper.....Why do you think Trent Richardson would be erased if we went more shotgun?  I dont get that....The guy has great hands....He blocks well....He is actuially quite similiar to Marshawn Lynch in his physical punishing running style...In my eyes, this wouldn't hurt T Rich one bit.  Lots of teams are using the short passing game as sort of the running game...It helps to get the RB out in space, where he's one on one with a LB,  safety or nickel back.  I'll take Richardson in a one on one with anybody. That's a win for Cleveland....Like Ray Lewis said last year, T. Rich is the toughest back in the league to get on the ground. 

Regardless of where you fall in the Weeden debate this is a pretty powerful paragraph ...

He spent better than 80% in shotgun in college, the NFL spent on average 66% in shotgun and both Turner and Chud's offenses spent north of 75% in shotgun...yet Shurmur decided to put his rookie QB in shotgun 43% of the time, with little to no time to read a defense prior to snap...There is a distinct difference in what proves to be successful and what doesn't in a young QB...Shurmur did the opposite of that.

Really does have to make you wonder about Shurmur. Everyone on the planet appeared to know he was on the hot seat and instead of putting his QB in the best possible position to succeed (QB and team) he bucked the trend of the entire league.

He's exactly the kind of coach I was hoping they would not bring in (and they didn't)....the guy who is married to hiis system regardless of the player. I wonder what he'd have done had they acquired RG3.