No tear to be shad

You are right, because of a couple bad apples all must pay.  So I guess all Bamers should be thought of as criminals due to a couple right?

You are right, because of a couple bad apples all must pay. So I guess all Bamers should be thought of as criminals due to a couple right?



The thing is ellupo is a couple bad apples does make everyone pay. A player taking money from a booster and everyone on the team pays for that player being selfish.



Every school gets punished because of a few bad apples.

The thing is ellupo is a couple bad apples does make everyone pay. A player taking money from a booster and everyone on the team pays for that player being selfish.



Every school gets punished because of a few bad apples.

There is no other way for the NCAA to handle boosters giving money to recruits. It isn't illegal to give away money. Someone who gives 18 year olds money (sometimes 100k+) is both wealthy and bat chit crazy. The thought of their team recieving very harsh punsihments is they only way to enforce that. It isn't fair to the 75 other kids who do the right thing, but again the NCAA has no other way to deter buying players from happening.
  

6


I hear ya and I totally get where you are coming from. My post was just to point out that the majority does get punished for the acts of few and that this isnt something new to CFB

The thought of their team recieving very harsh punsihments is they only way to enforce that.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The NCAA keeps punishing this way and yet boosters still give stuff to kids, kids keep taking it and the NCAA keeps punishing innocent players and coaches to try and deter it.

So, who's crazy?

So the boosters keep giving these kids money and think they wont get caught but they do.  Yes that is instanity.

I've got it:  Do away with the NCAA and let the teams and their boosters just do what they want with no rules.  Let recruits choose from among the highest bidders.  Yeah, that would work.

While I think the NCAA and its rule book need some reforms, I don't think you should throw the baby out with the bathwater.  IMO, it's the job of the coaches who are so highly paid (and their staffs) as well as the universities who employ them to "know" the players they have recruited and the tendency for "star" players to be manipulated by those who atre unscrupulous.  If they don't do the job and are willfully blind, then THEY are responsible for the penalties that accrue not the NCAA.

I've got it: Do away with the NCAA and let the teams and their boosters just do what they want with no rules. Let recruits choose from among the highest bidders. Yeah, that would work.

Haha a true genius you much be. None of which is what I want. Do you not think a new governing organization could not be assigned? You must think the NHL was always the NHL. NBA was created from a merger of two independent leagues BAA and NBL. DO you not think NCAA can be replaced?

If they don't do the job and are willfully blind, then THEY are responsible for the penalties that accrue not the NCAA.

Although I agree with you that the Coaches and Staff could be more engaged; however, you have missed the point of my post. I am not against the NCAA handing out Sanctions to teams or schools that break the rules...I am against the officiating organization breaking their own rules and nothing happens. The NCAA broke the law. Period. No way around it. What they did with Miami is beyound shady. Do you think the NCAA will sanction itself? Death penalty for one year maybe? I think not. If the Officiating Organization can not be trusted then it is time to replace it. And the NCAA can not be trusted.

I am against the officiating organization breaking their own rules and nothing happens. The NCAA broke the law. Period. No way around it.



People lost their jobs already.  No long investigation they were gone.  No cover up, no hiding it they came forward and then jobs lost. 

I agree it does suck for an entire program to get punished based on 5 dumbarses

like  scam newton

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. The NCAA keeps punishing this way and yet boosters still give stuff to kids, kids keep taking it and the NCAA keeps punishing innocent players and coaches to try and deter it.

So, who's crazy?

No disagreement here, I just can't think of any correct way to handle the situation.




    

You are right, because of a couple bad apples all must pay.  So I guess all Bamers should be thought of as criminals due to a couple right?

Ellopo you are a hypocrite.  On one hand you have repeatedly on this board denounced anyone who defended PSU or Joe Paterno.  Now if I'm reading your tongue in cheek remark that you don't think that everyone should pay for what a few have done????????????????  So which is it, with regard for PSU you wanted everyone to feel the pain and wanted the death penalty, now you don’t in this case?

Ellopo you are a hypocrite.  On one hand you have repeatedly on this board denounced anyone who defended PSU or Joe Paterno.  Now if I'm reading your tongue in cheek remark that you don't think that everyone should pay for what a few have done????????????????  So which is it, with regard for PSU you wanted everyone to feel the pain and wanted the death penalty, now you don’t in this case?


Yes those that defended things at PSU and JoePa I sure did and the university should be punished for violating the NCAA rules. 

Now the NCAA broke rules, those that did are already gone and nobody left is defending them. 

Please explain how that is hyporcritical... or do you need to read a definition first.

or do you need to read a definition first.

Haha poor ellupo. Buddy you may need to pull out the dictionary yourself. You hold PSU to a higher standard than you actually hold the governing organization? Does NCAA now represent "Do as I say, not as I do"? Pretty funny stuff

Haha poor ellupo. Buddy you may need to pull out the dictionary yourself. You hold PSU to a higher standard than you actually hold the governing organization? Does NCAA now represent "Do as I say, not as I do"? Pretty funny stuff


You show me where the NCAA performed a long term cover up of this violation and I will admit I am wrong.  The NCAA personnel broke the rules and now they are looking for new jobs and that happened immediately. 

And how is that similiar to PSU and what they did?

as a fan of one of the most prolifec violators of NCAA rules I can understand why you would be done with them

You show me where the NCAA performed a long term cover up of this violation and I will admit I am wrong.

I don't know about the Miami case, but the NCAA is STILL trying to cover up what they did in the USC cases. They are actively trying to keep evidence that can be used against them in Coach McNairs lawsuit concealed. They have been covering their behavior in the USC case since approximately 2004.

I'll wait for your admission of wrongness!!

I don't know about the Miami case, but the NCAA is STILL trying to cover up what they did in the USC cases. They are actively trying to keep evidence that can be used against them in Coach McNairs lawsuit concealed. They have been covering their behavior in the USC case since approximately 2004.


Well to date I have not seen this evidence.  If it comes out they screwed up and broke laws/rules and have been hiding it and covering it up, I will be with more strict action against the NCAA. 

My admission comes with your proof

[http://articles.latimes.com/2012/no
v/21/sports/la-sp-newswire-20121122
]

[http://www.conquestchronicles.com/2
012/5/7/3006026/judge-orders-the-nc
aa-to-over-e-mails-to-mcnair]


In the 2nd article, you have to read the court order. It shows that the court order is in response to the NCAA objecting and trying to limit production of e-mails to only those that mention Coach McNair by name and also only those from Committee on Infractions members.

C'mon ellupo, when have you known me to post something that I can't back up?

Very interesting.

An Ohio State fan owning up to the penalties their school received which included a post-season ban during an undefeated and untied season.  The 6th such season in the entire history of their vaunted program, and a season in which their team would have likely played for a National Title.

On the other hand, we have a 'prove it' USC fan in which a single player received over $80K in benefits (compared to $17K for Ohio State), and finger pointing to the NCAA after their coach left before the sanctions were laid down.

Ohio State cooperated.  USC did not.

Evidence in the Ohio State case involved e-mails between Coach Tressel and a Lawyer.  One could say that violates client/lawyer privileges.  The other evidence was information obtained from a Tattoo Parlor whose owner was found guilty of drug trafficking and was a known criminal in the community.

Rather seedy stuff, and yet I don't hear Ohio State fan's complaining.  Even after such an incredible season in which they got nothing due to sanctions.  Where are their cries of foul play for all of $17K in benefits which included client/attorney privileges and dealings with a person of criminal nature that can't be trusted?

Ohio State's coach was given a Show Cause penalty of 5 years.  USC's coach left while the getting was good.

Ohio State received a 1 year post-season ban.  USC 2 years.

Ohio State received a 3 per year scholarship reduction over 3 years while USC received a 10 per year scholarship reduction over 3 years. 

Ohio State admits to being caught red-handed even while involved with some questionable people of character.  Miami points fingers even though they were involved with a convicted felon.  USC admits nothing and wants to claim Reggie's father as the agent much like the Cam Newton case.

Call me crazy, but it looks like one school is owning up to their cheating and sanctions while a number of other schools want to point the finger elsewhere.             

    

  

    
    

On the other hand, we have a 'prove it' USC fan in which a single player received over $80K in benefits (compared to $17K for Ohio State), and finger pointing to the NCAA after their coach left before the sanctions were laid down.

Incorrect. I never said that the stuff at USC never happened and no one at USC has said that it didn't happen. All anyone associated with USC has EVER claimed is that no one at the school knew it was happening and that the sanctions were inconsistent with previous precedent. Coach McNair is suing the NCAA because they made him the scapegoat and used incorrect and tainted evidence against him.

Ohio State cooperated.  USC did not.

Also incorrect. The NCAA stated in it's findings that USC cooperated fully with the investigation.

Evidence in the Ohio State case involved e-mails between Coach Tressel and a Lawyer.  One could say that violates client/lawyer privileges.  The other evidence was information obtained from a Tattoo Parlor whose owner was found guilty of drug trafficking and was a known criminal in the community.

Rather seedy stuff, and yet I don't hear Ohio State fan's complaining.  Even after such an incredible season in which they got nothing due to sanctions.  Where are their cries of foul play for all of $17K in benefits which included client/attorney privileges and dealings with a person of criminal nature that can't be trusted?

They are not complaining because the school was caught red handed and Tressell knew what was going on and tried to cover it up and lied to the NCAA about it. Additionally, the sanctions they received were consistent with previous precedent.

They also got to have the players involved play in their BCS bowl even after the NCAA already knew what happened.

In short, there was nothing for them to complain about.

Ohio State admits to being caught red-handed even while involved with some questionable people of character. 

Because they WERE caught red-handed. What the hell choice did they have? The NCAA had them dead to rights.

USC admits nothing

Incorrect. All that USC has said is that they didn't know about it. And guess what..........you saying that they did doesn't change that.

and wants to claim Reggie's father as the agent much like the Cam Newton case.

Also incorrect. USC has never made that claim. I suggested the possibility in a different post. 

Call me crazy,

I don't know about crazy, but definitely incorrect re: USC.

but it looks like one school is owning up to their cheating and sanctions while a number of other schools want to point the finger elsewhere.

Incorrect again. USC never pointed a finger. USC simply stated that they didn't know about the violations and guess what? The NCAA was never able to prove that they did.

Additionally, it is not USC who is suing the NCAA, it is former Assistant Coach Todd McNair. USC has said that they will not seek to sue the NCAA and has accepted the sanctions and moved on. The statements that you read are USC fans being critical of the way that the NCAA conducted themselves in the investigation.

2 wrongs do not make a right and the ends does not necessarily justify the means. How can the NCAA sanction schools for lack of institutional control, when they lack institutional control themselves?

2 wrongs do not make a right and the ends does not necessarily justify the means. How can the NCAA sanction schools for lack of institutional control, when they lack institutional control themselves?

All the typical excuses of what I would expect.

We did nothing wrong, it is all the NCAA's fault that Reggie Bush and/or his parent's received $80K in benefits.  Who cares about that stuff, look over here with Todd McNair. 

Did Reggie Bush and/or his parents receive beneficial treatment and/or monies due to Reggie's athletic status while he attended USC?

Simple question.  YES or NO?  

    
   

All the typical excuses of what I would expect.

We did nothing wrong, it is all the NCAA's fault that Reggie Bush and/or his parent's received $80K in benefits. Who cares about that stuff, look over here with Todd McNair.

Did Reggie Bush and/or his parents receive beneficial treatment and/or monies due to Reggie's athletic status while he attended USC?

Simple question. YES or NO?



Look the point of breaking the rules is all good we get it. There still should be a system in place to correct or punish instutions. The rulebook the NCAA uses is so huge and the NCAA enforces it however they see fit. It is to subject.

Look the point of breaking the rules is all good we get it. There still should be a system in place to correct or punish instutions. The rulebook the NCAA uses is so huge and the NCAA enforces it however they see fit. It is to subject.

Yet it wasn't big enough or good enough to 'catch' Auburn and Cam Newton in 2010?

The biggest problem I have is the complaints about the rule book being too big to comprehend; yet not big enough to take care of all the loopholes that everybody wants to complain about.

You can't have it both ways.

I'm all for a new organization.  The real question is whether it will be better than the one in place?  It is all up to the schools and conferences to cooperate and find some middle ground.  It is more than obvious ALL of our schools and conferences have neglected the rules they are to be governed under for so long that it has become archaic at the very least.

    

      

    

The biggest problem I have is the complaints about the rule book being too big to comprehend; yet not big enough to take care of all the loopholes that everybody wants to complain about.

You can't have it both ways.

Actually, I think that the size of it has much to do with the loopholes. The rulebook is so big and convoluted that the NCAA doesn't even always know what's in it and where the loopholes are. Heck, no one knew about the Auburn/Cam Newton loophole until the NCAA went to look for the rule to punish them with.

I'm all for a new organization.

As much as I rail against them, I'm actually not in favor of replacing them. I think the NCAA is fixable, they just need to be willing to do the work. I guess I'd rather deal with the devil that I know rather than the devil I don't know.

Actually, I think that the size of it has much to do with the loopholes. The rulebook is so big and convoluted that the NCAA doesn't even always know what's in it and where the loopholes are. Heck, no one knew about the Auburn/Cam Newton loophole until the NCAA went to look for the rule to punish them with.

100% disagree.  If a rule book is too big to comprehend then it likely has few, if any, loopholes.  We find loopholes in the NCAA rulebook every year.  The rules get updated and changed every year.     

Unless you want to make grand and bold statements regarding rules (I'm salivating as to what I would like to see), then you probably wouldn't like what you would be wanting to change.

100% disagree.  If a rule book is too big to comprehend then it likely has few, if any, loopholes.  We find loopholes in the NCAA rulebook every year.  The rules get updated and changed every year.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I have seen plenty of rulebooks with employers where making it smaller, more user friendly and streamline actually closed loopholes.

And if the rulebook isn't too big and confusing, why has it been reported that Emmert is having updated and made more streamline and easier to understand?